Canadian Chocho
Active Member
The Scarborough Subway is clearly represented as a separate entity in the Smarttrack plan:
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The Scarborough Subway is clearly represented as a separate entity in the Smarttrack plan:
44 North
Senior Member
I'm aware of the plans, and what's been presented. I'm talking about the reality, and the endgame in two years' time when a BCA explains that two paralleling suburban subway lines 2km apart is a silly idea. And considering that there will still be a subway, the promise was never fully broken.
Rainforest
Senior Member
1) We do not know how often the SmartTrack trains will run, and how many riders they will carry. If it is one train every 15 min, it is not enough for all of Scarborough + Markham.
2) Even if the total capacity is high enough, STC cannot be left without any rail connection. So, you will have to either bring back SLRT that would run not 2 km apart, but 20 m from the other line. Or, find a way to branch SmartTrack at Ellesmere and send one branch to STC; that makes sense in principle but they may be issues with both the corridor width and the train frequency.
44 North
Senior Member
The SRT can be kept going as a shuttle running between Midland or Ellesemere and McCowan. I'd like for it to be expanded and refitted for LRT, but the people have spoken, so to speak. A simple crossover track is all that's needed to make it happen. And the extra vehicles offered by the now-shortened route will allow it to stay open for many more decades - getting ever more decrepit as the years go on.
Obviously this is not what people had in mind. But by all accounts, Scarborough should be happy. They'll have a subway (or at least something labelled as such), plus a transferless ride across the city. I can’t imagine the full length of the SRT being run alongside SmartTrack, nor can I see a subway being constructed alongside it. An SRT-STC shuttle seems like the best case scenario.
I apologize if I've offered a bleak outlook, but this is what I foresee.
RyanM12
New Member
Between Ellesmere and McCowan? Nonsense, that would never happen. I think you should actually go ride the SRT sometime.
Ellesmere and Midland are the least used stations in the entire network. The SRT corridor was chosen because it was available and the simplest route, not because that's where it was needed. The SRT was a mistake from day one. The subway should've been extended up McCowan to Sheppard 30 years ago. Anyone who's lived in Scarborough probably knows this. And I'm confident it'll get built.
The only way to save the SRT now, is if it's finished to Finch/Morningside, and runs express from Kennedy to Union (i.e. with EMU's as part of SmartTrack).
Ellesmere and Midland are the least used stations in the entire network. The SRT corridor was chosen because it was available and the simplest route, not because that's where it was needed. The SRT was a mistake from day one. The subway should've been extended up McCowan to Sheppard 30 years ago. Anyone who's lived in Scarborough probably knows this. And I'm confident it'll get built.
The only way to save the SRT now, is if it's finished to Finch/Morningside, and runs express from Kennedy to Union (i.e. with EMU's as part of SmartTrack).
Rainforest
Senior Member
Actually, you proposal could work, together with a really robust implementation of SmartTrack running on 5-min headways. An LRT or ICTS line that connects to SmartTrack's Ellesmere station, then runs to STC, and continues east to Centennial College and beyond, would provide a very useful connection.
However, it will never happen. By the time Scarborough Subway is finalized, SmartTrack will be in early design stages and 5-min headways won't even be on the table. The Scarborough Subway BCA will assume SmartTrack with 15-min headways, conclude that it does not divert too many riders from the subway, and go ahead.
By the time SmartTrack achieves 5-min headways, if such time ever comes, Scarborough Subway will be up and running.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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STC and Ellesmere both is not going to happen with the subway. Make your choice.
44 North
Senior Member
There were a lot of promises made during the last Prov election. It’s merely a prediction that the Prov's $1.5bn committal to any “Scarboro Subway” was planned all along to be allocated towards RER/SmartTrack instead. And since SmartTrack’s “surface subway” labelling makes it a de facto "Scarboro Subway", it can’t be said that the Libs broke any promise. And considering that by default SmartTrack now has this same $1.5bn funding commitment, the Prov has essentially killed two birds with one stone.
Keeping the decrepit SRT alive to run as a shuttle between STC and the Stouffville/SmartTrack corridor is simply my best case scenario if this happens. It's not really a proposal or anything...If I had my way an SLRT would be sent past Centennial to Malvern, and branched at Markham Rd with a route along Ellesmere to UT's campus.
Keeping the decrepit SRT alive to run as a shuttle between STC and the Stouffville/SmartTrack corridor is simply my best case scenario if this happens. It's not really a proposal or anything...If I had my way an SLRT would be sent past Centennial to Malvern, and branched at Markham Rd with a route along Ellesmere to UT's campus.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I for one hope you're right about the SRT and RER happening. There is absolutely no reason to build this subway extension.
What I've been hoping for is that when Council sees the updated price tag for the Scarborough Subway, that they'll start looking at other options that a) don't involve tunnelling, and b) don't involve reverting to LRT (seen as a flip-flop). The logical compromise then is to integrate the Scarborough transit solution into SmartTrack/GO RER. As you've rightly pointed out, SmartTrack has been labelled as a surface subway, so it's not a renege on the subway promise per se.
In order to serve STC, all you'd need is a branch from the Stouffville line along the SRT ROW, probably replacing the existing guideway. The $1.4 billion the Province allocated could easily build RER to at least Malvern along the already-reserved SRT ROW, considering that it's basically the SLRT proposal with the Kennedy to Ellesmere section cut out. That extra money can be put into building a spur line off the Sheppard East LRT to serve STC, or to extend the Eglinton LRT further into Scarborough via the Scarborough-Malvern LRT alignment.
Under that scenario, the $1.4 billion from the Province gets you a heck of a lot more transit than either the Scarborough LRT or Subway solutions. That of course is assuming that the Stouffville line is being electrified and at least double tracked anyway under a separate budget (which it is). An express "subway" from Malvern and STC straight to downtown (no forced transfer at Kennedy) that doesn't involve raising taxes to pay for it? I think that's something most Scarberians would get behind.
44 North
Senior Member
I definitely like this idea...to have the SRT-Ellesmere corridor served by a branch of SmartTrack instead of as a standalone line. Do you think the turns and gradients can be handled with whatever rolling stock is used for SmartTrack/RER? Like I've mentioned before, I'm not fully up to speed on the issue of RER - although I'm of the opinion that the trains could theoretically be proper light rail. Although there are compliance issues, it seems to offer a lot more flexibility and opportunities for branching routes (such as this example).
That being said, I still like the idea of Ellesmere/SRT being its own line, instead of a spur/branch of anything else. This allows it to be extended west past Kennedy to any Midtown corridor, or to serve as a trunk section of any crosstown route in place of Sheppard... though this idea is a personal view and somewhat based off of a carte blanche scenario where the SELRT is cancelled outright.
aquateam
Active Member
I've been wondering this too, since I've heard proposals to turn the SRT corridor into a branch of GO RER. My question is, if the turns and gradients are supposedly too severe for a subway (as per Glenn Murray's subway plan) then shouldn't they be too much for the more stringent GO train criteria?
I believe the gradient in question that's too tight for subway is the tunnel and turn from N-S to E-W just north of Ellesmere. However, if RER is used, a tunnel will not be necessary, since it wouldn't have to cross under the Stouffville tracks, since it would be running ON the Stouffville tracks. The incline to elevated can begin right after Ellesmere Station, and be at the necessary height by the time it makes the turn, if not shortly afterwards (inclined turn).
As for the rest of the ROW, the existing SRT guideway will likely have to be replaced, but I wouldn't foresee any problems with the extension guideway being modified to suit RER.
And yes, by connecting in with GO RER instead of the TTC Subway or TTC LRT system, there's a far greater degree of flexibility in terms of routings and branches.
44 North
Senior Member
I had a fleeting idea. Not sure if it fully works, but it could provide an answer to the quandary of what to do with the SRT - while acknowledging the demand for those wanting a transferless ride between STC and Kennedy. Basically it would be to keep the SRT open, but have it run as a single track express between Ellesmere and Kennedy. Theoretically it can run between the double-tracked SmartTrack for much of its stretch. So it’s not a duplication of service, but rather sharing of a corridor for a 4km stretch.
quicksilver
Active Member
These are some interesting fantasy scenarios but given that the Minister of Transportation, Premier and newly elected mayor have all said they're not interested in changing course from a subway extension of Bloor/Danforth to Sheppard and McCowan, I think it is likely we will see an acceleration of the subway plan now that the bickering is behind us. Even council's leading opponent, Josh Matlow, has been making statements that suggest he thinks it's time to move on.
There is funding from three levels of government for this project. (As there is the for the Sheppard East LRT.) Toronto council actually voted for a tax increase for transit. That's kind of a special occurrence, makes me think it could happen again for other projects. With regard to the proximity of the single-track Stouffville line, perhaps the RER/SmartTrack lines on a map will now get cut back to Kennedy. Tory did run on both the subway extension and the SmartTrack plan. Of the two, the subway extension is more mature and makes far more sense for this part of Toronto.
There is funding from three levels of government for this project. (As there is the for the Sheppard East LRT.) Toronto council actually voted for a tax increase for transit. That's kind of a special occurrence, makes me think it could happen again for other projects. With regard to the proximity of the single-track Stouffville line, perhaps the RER/SmartTrack lines on a map will now get cut back to Kennedy. Tory did run on both the subway extension and the SmartTrack plan. Of the two, the subway extension is more mature and makes far more sense for this part of Toronto.