Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

We're not very well going to drop the underground connectors to the subway though are we? Lose those and turn the LRT into an on-street connection to the subway and we'll have people howling about the inconvenience, calling LRT streetcars, and tarnishing its already frail reputation in this city.

One can't complain that our LRTs are more expensive than elsewhere, and then complain that there aren't underground connections to the LRT at subway stations, which don't exist elsewhere.

Look at the new trams in Paris. Typically where these meet the underground Metro stations, there has been no attempt to build an underground tram station. It's just a simple surface stop. If we want to built LRT at cheaper prices, why not simply build an at-surface LRT stop, instead of these planned underground stations at Finch West station, Don Mills station, Kennedy station, Don Mills+Eglinton, etc.?

 

[W. K. Lis]

One can't complain that our LRTs are more expensive than elsewhere, and then complain that there aren't underground connections to the LRT at subway stations, which don't exist elsewhere.

Look at the new trams in Paris. Typically where these meet the underground Metro stations, there has been no attempt to build an underground tram station. It's just a simple surface stop. If we want to built LRT at cheaper prices, why not simply build an at-surface LRT stop, instead of these planned underground stations at Finch West station, Don Mills station, Kennedy station, Don Mills+Eglinton, etc.?

Like in Montréal, where you need a transfer to do so between the Metro trains and buses?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Come on people... Do some of you really think that a subway could ever be cheaper than LRT!?

 

[andrewpmk]

Right. The real lesson here is that the rolling stock and electrical pickup type have a minimal impact to cost.

A shared surface corridor is relatively cheap. A surface exclusive corridor (where GO is heading) is moderately priced. An underground high capacity exclusive corridor is really expensive.

This applies whether running Toronto Rockets, LRT, or swan boats.

The expensive bits of Sheppard and Finch are the underground passenger connections to the subway. Take those out and both lines drop in price by about 50%.

In the case of Sheppard, the sole purpose of the underground section is to make extending the subway impossible, because this proposal had far more do with Miller wanting to make it impossible to extend the subway in the future than providing any useful transportation infrastructure.

 

[Voltz]

In the case of Sheppard, the sole purpose of the underground section is to make extending the subway impossible, because this proposal had far more do with Miller wanting to make it impossible to extend the subway in the future than providing any useful transportation infrastructure.

I must be living in some alternate reality or something....

 

[nfitz]

Come on people... Do some of you really think that a subway could ever be cheaper than LRT!?

Sure it could, if our subways looked like this:

and our LRT looked like this:

 

[nfitz]

In the case of Sheppard, the sole purpose of the underground section is to make extending the subway impossible, because this proposal had far more do with Miller wanting to make it impossible to extend the subway in the future than providing any useful transportation infrastructure.

That is absolutely the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Why do you post such ignorant stuff? What's with all this unnecesary anti-Miller trolling? He's by far the best mayor we've had in the last decade.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

That is absolutely the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Why do you post such ignorant stuff? What's with all this unnecesary anti-Miller trolling? He's by far the best mayor we've had in the last decade.

+1

Also, in case andrewpmk didn't know (because I really don't get what he's trying to talk about) the purpose of an underground section to the SELRT is to enable a cross-platform transfer. That's called convenience in the face of needing to deal with the existing subway, it's called throwing the rabidly pro-subway advocates a small bone, and it also helps by avoiding heavy overhaul of Don Mills station in the future in case the subway is ever converted to LRT.

Also, killing the possibility for a Sheppard subway extension isn't a bad thing. That subway is a bottomless money pit, and yet there will always be more people in Toronto willing to throw money into it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I must be living in some alternate reality or something....

Ignore him.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That is absolutely the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

Why do you post such ignorant stuff? What's with all this unnecesary anti-Miller trolling? He's by far the best mayor we've had in the last decade.

Thanks to Miller, we have more subways under construction than ever before. Yet subway fans (andrewpmk) hate him. It makes no sense at all.

 

[Rainforest]

Technically, the underground section of Sheppard LRT does not preclude the subway extension. The LRT tunnel is slightly wider than the subway tunnel, and can be reused for subway extension.

Of course, any possibility of such extension will be pushed into a very remote future due to fiscal reasons: once the corridor has LRT, it will be easier to justify investments in other corridors rather than redoing Sheppard. But such consideration holds regardless of whether the LRT has an underground terminal or stays on surface all the way.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Thanks to Miller, we have more subways under construction than ever before. Yet subway fans (andrewpmk) hate him. It makes no sense at all.

Miller is why Ford is mayor. Had he been mayor right now Ford would have been gone from council in 2011 after the first tapes came out, and none of the last four years happen.

 

[Rainforest]

Based on the recent contract extension to add 14 more vehicles for Waterloo for $92.4 million, these vehicles cost $6.6 million each. With 35 of these included in the cost, that's over $230 million or almost $20M/km right there. This lowers the actual LRT construction cost to about $50M/km. Then you toss in the almost 1 km of tunnel that is necessary to get from Don Mills Station to the portal just west of Consumers Road, and that's surely another $100 million (or more!) Suddenly the cost for the surface LRT section without the tunnel or the vehicles is about $40M/km. Assuming the basic cost of the vehicle garage (not including extra tracks for storage) is another $100 million or so, and then the cost of just the LRT itself is about $30M/km.

You can come around these numbers another way. Metrolinx estimated the 2 km extension of the Sheppard East LRT from Morninside to Meadowvale was about $100 million or $50M/km. If the extra vehicles are about $20M/km, then the track and road improvements themselves are $30M/km.

You are right.

However, for many purposes it is more useful to compare full costs of each mode: construction, vehicles, maintenance facilities, land acquisition etc; rather than just the construction cost. In other words, adding those to the subway cost-per-mile rather than subtracting from the LRT cost-per-mile.

Then, it is easier to say how many km of LRT can be built for the cost of X km of subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

One can't complain that our LRTs are more expensive than elsewhere, and then complain that there aren't underground connections to the LRT at subway stations, which don't exist elsewhere.

Look at the new trams in Paris. Typically where these meet the underground Metro stations, there has been no attempt to build an underground tram station. It's just a simple surface stop. If we want to built LRT at cheaper prices, why not simply build an at-surface LRT stop, instead of these planned underground stations at Finch West station, Don Mills station, Kennedy station, Don Mills+Eglinton, etc.?

And to be honest, why Finch goes below ground is beyond me. Atleast to Yonge there is enough room on the road for an LRT.

Come on people... Do some of you really think that a subway could ever be cheaper than LRT!?

We could have just built all of eglinton above ground. Chicago is doing that.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I know MrsNesbitt is the only who will agree here, but this is why we should have never agreed to the subway extension. This thing will be a white elephant and the numbers show it. If the CP havelock corridor opens up, then all the NE Scarbrorugh riders will be lost too