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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Hmm, I got 1.9 billion from here: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4124.shtml



However here it says 1-1.5 billion:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...first-salvo-at-fords-lrt-plan/article1359564/

Anyways it would obviously cost significantly more to fully grade separate 10km.

There is a ML report from 2012 that compared the ECLRT underground and partially exclusive ROWs. But I cant find it at the moment.

Agreed Tiger. It should not cost 1.9 bllion to grade sepeate or even 1 billion unless they are doing something wrong. We should save some money for Eglinton West.

Well that didn't take long for the Liberals to waffle.

You were warned :)
 
Good point. However if GO rapid transit (or whatever it's called) draws riders away from the subway, this further means there isn't a need to grade-separate Eglinton.

Agreed there too.

I've often looked at the CP railway corridor near Leslie and Eglinton and wondered if a straightened Richmond Hill line could have a stop there. Put tracks back on Leaside Spur Trail, perhaps tunnelled to connect to the existing route south of Oriole.

With a reconfigured Oriole/Leslie stop and a solid interchange at Eglinton, we've got an express way to move between East/West trunk lines and downtown while keeping the rider off the Yonge line. Damn close to the Yonge express that some on this forum dream about.
 
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Agreed there too.

I've often looked at the CP railway corridor near Leslie and Eglinton and wondered if a straightened Richmond Hill line could have a stop there. Put tracks back on Leaside Spur Trail, perhaps tunnelled. Shift Oriole north to Sheppard and you've got a fast downtown express with stops at Sheppard, Eglinton, and Union.

The more I learn about transit, the more I'm convinced that utilizing the GO corridors for rapid transit is the best solution given our urgent need to expand our system. (CityRail, GO REX, GO RER etc).

If there was an upgraded Richmond Hill line with stops at Eglinton & Sheppard and connections to the Eglinton LRT & Sheppard subway, that would be amazing.

Imagine how much time people north of Toronto could save by taking the highway 7 BRT to the Richmond Hill stop at Yonge & Highway 7, then taking a train that's much faster than the Yonge subway to either midtown or downtown, transferring to the local lines to get to their final destination.

Edit:
Looking at Google maps, it seems like Leslie station on Sheppard is right beside the GO tracks..
 
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Agreed Tiger. It should not cost 1.9 bllion to grade sepeate or even 1 billion unless they are doing something wrong.

Would it not be nice if Metrolinx would just make all their reports public so we could see the cost. Is it 800M, or $1B - we are just making educated guesses based on SkyTrain and EverGreen line which cost $100M to $150M for part elevated, part underground, part at grade in separate ROW.

Its about 8km from "Brentcliffe" portal to Kennedy Station (not 10km as some have said). 1km of that would be at-grade on the south side and could have allowed the Laird cross-over and pocket tracks to be built at/near grade near Don Mills instead of deep underground in the middle of Eglinton - probably for a cost savings on this portion. The two underground segments; one at Don Mills of about 600-700m, which would have been maintained - so the same cost. The other underground segment at Kennedy, also about 600-700m along the middle of Eglinton, would have been replaced by an elevated line over Kennedy and an underground portion in the parking lot of only about 200 - 300m in length. - so there would be some cost savings here. So the only extra cost would have been to elevate the remaining 5.5 - 6.0 km, minus the savings. The reduced construction disturbance would have been and added bonus.

The biggest thing though is why did Metrolinx not release this information? It seems obvious that if they were an independent agency tasked with finding the best transit solutions, then these solutions would have been made public. The only conclusion is that they are either totally incompetent, or they have been muzzled by their political masters.

I wish we had a mole from Metrolinx who would be willing to post the necessary information.

Edit: Forgot to mention the importance of comparing the extra cost to elevate compared to the base cost of the current in-median plan. I am not sure if I have seen an estimate for the current plan along this "at-grade" section, but I would say it would be in the $400 - $600M range.
 
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It is probably unintentionally the latter. Not so much they are 'muzzled by their political masters' but more so they are forced to play the game in order to keep their relevance as an agency. Submitting contradictory reports to the Liberal narrative wasn't conductive to the Liberal campaign, and the agency's funding and even survival as an entity was dependent on the Liberals staying in power.

It shall be interesting to see how Metrolynx operates now that there is a Liberal majority.
 
Richmond Hill GO is very slow, its usually faster to take the subway especially once you count the wait for a train.

Right. But it wouldn't be slow if the line was straightened in the manner I had described. Electrified, straightened, and with switching at union fixed (in progress) it might be a 15 minute trip (not counting waiting time) from Sheppard to Union; though not a cheap project.

CP has essentially abandoned much of this corridor (bridge/track near Brickworks and DVP section. Pushing through the yard at Redway Road and doubling the bridge over Seaton Park to reclaim hit the Leaside Spur Trail lands are the hard parts.

While few would leave Yonge to catch the express, it would be sufficient to prevent many riders arriving from the East from getting onto Yonge.


Anyway, I'm pretty far off topic.
 
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A Scarborough subway: Do the numbers add up?

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/14000/article19473790/?page=all

.....

An old ridership projection pegged peak one-direction usage at 9,500 passengers per hour, barely enough to justify a subway extension. The new one – which appeared as the transit debates rose to their crescendo – boosted peak ridership to 14,000, almost beyond the capacity of light rail. In a stroke, the case for a subway was much stronger.

- The problems on Sheppard – where ridership is about one-third the original projection, forcing heavy subsidies – speak to the dilemma with forecasting. Planners looking to the future have to make assumptions that could, with the benefit of hindsight, prove unwise. --- In the case of the Scarborough extension, the bulk of the nearly 50-per-cent increase in projected ridership is based on two decisions that raise questions. Planners assumed a train frequency that does not appear budgeted for and they assumed that transit projects that today are unfunded lines on the map will be completed.

- Although pro-subway politicians like to declare the project irrevocable, the planners who produced the Scarborough projection are the first to stress that their work is preliminary. Even though all three levels of government have committed big dollars to the project, much more analysis needs to be done and a more accurate ridership figure has yet to be determined. Councillor Josh Matlow, who continues to advocate for a light-rail line in Scarborough, views the latest number with skepticism, He still recalls how frustrated he was at council trying to determine the basis and validity for the increased ridership figure that emerged at such a pivotal moment.

- “Right now it’s still clear that there’s different numbers that are competing with each other,” he said recently. “It’s not like we just didn’t happen to have the information. I clearly asked for the information… that information never came to the floor of council… and council decided nonetheless just to move forward, regardless.” --- With the debate about Scarborough continuing to reverberate through the mayoral election – as recently as late June, Premier Kathleen Wynne had a chance in a press conference to state definitively that the province’s funding for transit in that part of Toronto would be for a subway only and chose not to do so – The Globe took a close look at the math.

- Although planners stress that early projections are works-in-progress, politicians have a tendency to run with the number if they like what they hear. This happened after Toronto Transit Commission CEO Andy Byford repeatedly described the projection during last year’s debates as being “on the cusp,” justifying either type of transit. With a projection that offered some solace to both subway and LRT camps, more subjective factors – among them value for money, impact on motorists, city-building and Scarborough alienation – became the dominant narratives in the debate at city hall.

- “All Toronto residents should have access to a good healthy vibrant transit system,” said Councillor Glenn de Baeremaeker, a subway booster through whose ward the extension would run. “If it went as low as 9,000 people per peak hour, I would still say you build the system, just like you did when you built it up to North York [in the 1960s].” --- And fellow councillor Karen Stintz, who helped orchestrate the move away from light rail, said the numbers were just one component of an important city-building project that cannot be derailed.

- The 14,000-passenger figure for a Scarborough subway extension will be further refined through an environmental assessment. If the data being used in the model change, so will the result. For staff at the TTC and the city, the projection is considered a good first stab. “What is actually going to be happening by 2031? I don’t know. I think then it would probably fall somewhere within here,” said Bernard Farrol, senior planner with the TTC, gesturing to the projections for 9,500 and 14,000 riders.

- Later in the interview he elaborated, speaking about the larger of the two figures. “We would be in the ballpark,” he said. “How big is that ballpark? I’m not going to say that. But, would it be double that? I doubt. Would it be half that? I doubt.”

.....




scarborough04to1.JPG
 
More arguing about whether useless ridership projections are accurate or not. These projections tend to be wildly inaccurate and in many cases are open to interpretation (i.e. no one knows what the ridership really will be, or the projected ridership is close to but not above the LRT maximum capacity). As usual the LRT boosters like to bias projections in favour of LRT and the subway boosters like to bias projections in favour of subway. In general I think that you are much better off with a high capacity system that is underused than a low capacity system that is severely overcrowded. This is especially true in cases like Eglinton where Miller insisted on building an extremely expensive LRT for political reasons when a much higher capacity subway could have been built for somewhat higher cost if the eastern section was elevated, or lower cost if the eastern section was not built. If the high capacity option is not much more expensive than the low capacity option, choosing the low capacity option is a bad idea. In cases where the subway is much more expensive than the LRT then it is easier to make the case for LRT. However in the case of the SRT the no brainer option of keeping the existing ICTS technology was excluded for political reasons, obviously because Miller wanted to make the Sheppard LRT hard to cancel. In the case of Sheppard I think that it is a really bad idea to put two incompatible technologies on the same line (except for the Scarborough RT, because that is the status quo), so if you do not have enough money to build the subway or the ridership on the subway is too low, it is better to build nothing, and users of bus 190 would be better off with nothing. I think it is much more likely that ridership will be higher than projected than lower than projected, simply because there has to be a baseline level of ridership produced by the existing development in an area, ridership is unlikely to be lower than that, but building a lot of tall buildings in an area could easily overwhelm the capacity of the line. Eglinton could easily be way higher than projected if the Ontario Municipal Board approves enough tall buildings on it (who knows whether this will happen or not), and if elevated rail is only a bit more expensive than LRT than why not build elevated? Of course councillors like Josh Matlow constantly go on and on about how much they hate the OMB and want to get rid of it (will never happen, the province does not want to create a housing shortage and have it cost $3000/month to rent a 1 bedroom apartment in Toronto) and tend to be absolutely against building anything taller than 6 storeys or so tall on Eglinton, so they have the illusion that Eglinton will never become overcrowded. Matlow tends to be the most anti-subway person on council when it comes to anything other than the downtown relief line, and I think he is wrong to be against subways because he is underestimating the amount of development than the Eglinton LRT will generate.
 
At the same time people want a subway where the numbers probably don't add up they also want a discount WTF

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...n-group-pressing-council-for-lower-ttc-fares/

Scarborough Transit Action group pressing council for lower TTC fares
Hamilton, Windsor and Guelph already have system to help low-income residents

Bus
Bus
Staff photo/ANDREW PALAMARCHUK
Bus riders board a Sheppard Avenue bus at Victoria Park Avenue in this file photo. A group called Scarborough Transit Action is seeking a system of reduced TTC fares for low-income earners.
Scarborough Mirror
Transit and anti-poverty advocates in Scarborough are pressing local councillors to support lower TTC fares for low-income residents when city council debates the idea at a meeting next week.

“If you can’t afford to drive, you depend on public transit,” Brenda Thompson of Scarborough Transit Action said in an interview Friday, July 4.

In the spread-out neighbourhoods of Scarborough, people who are unemployed or live on a low-income for other reasons cannot just walk to their local grocery store or doctor’s office, and many aren’t able to afford public transit, she said.

Council will debate a motion asking city departments to investigate “transit fare equity” for TTC riders, in order to ensure all Toronto residents can afford to use the TTC as expansions to the system take place.

Member groups of the Scarborough Anti-Poverty Coalition are also encouraging clients to call Scarborough councillors before the meeting begins on Tuesday, July 8, in order to express support for the motion.

Thompson said creating a low-income transit pass for Toronto would take 18 months, and the Ontario cities of Hamilton, Windsor and Guelph already have such reduced fares.

“It’s not anything really new,” she argued.

She agreed Toronto’s system is already run efficiently, and said the extra cost of low-income passes would have to be covered by a “new source of revenue” Thompson did not specify.
 
It should be painfully obvious to everyone here that 14,000 pphpd is not going to happen for this extension. As we all know, internal Metrolinx communications make it abundantly clear that their planners don't think this thing will have ridership anywhere near acceptable levels for subway. It wasn't until political tampering that the 14,000 number came up. The 9,000 number is more believable. And with 15 min all day two way GO coming, I would not be at all surprised if 2031 ridership dips below 9,000.


It should also be obvious to everyone here that this project will not be within the $3.05 Billion budget. Metrolinx is warning of cost overruns of 50%.

As preliminary work has continued on this line we've already seen the cost spike significantly.

Anyways when the EA is completed we'll begin to see the extent of the overruns. It's then that I'm expecting Council to swiftly kill the extension.
 
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It should also be obvious to everyone here that this project will not be within the $3.05 Billion budget. Metrolinx is warning of cost overruns of 50%, bringing the total cost to taxpayers up to $4.5 Billion. That's an additional $1.5 Billion that CoT taxpayers will be on the hook for.

$4.5B!!

That means the extra cost of building Eglinton LRT in the median (compared to an elevated option) would be $2B more.
 

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