Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

4 billion? That's the total cost of the subway right? There is a cost to convert the SRT to LRT and grade-separating Eglinton east (because all the Scarborough riders are funnelled onto Eglinton) as well. So there is a base cost that must happen to replace the SRT regardless (since it's almost end of life), and extra costs as result of this decision to grade-separate Eglinton East.

So.. I don't feel the statement "4 billion to eliminate a transfer" is an accurate or full picture of the two options.

Essentially you're taking many of the SRT riders heading downtown off the Bloor subway and putting them onto the Eglinton line instead.

I understand what you are suggesting but there clearly is limited $s going to transit and the DRL in whatever form should be the priority. The liberals just announced they are giving 12 billion of the 15 billion GTA money to GO transit... Wheres thte Hurontario money? wheres the DRL money? Wheres the finishing Eglinton, and Finch LRT money? Im sure once trudeau is in and chow we will have the money through gas taxes or tolls. Either way people arent going to be happy. But most importantly we need to build the most with the least. Which to be honest as much as I am going to vote for chow im thinking more and more that Torys GO/LRT plan makes the most sense.

 

[ehlow]

With the current plan its only Scarborough
that's grade separated. With my proposal its Scarborough + Eglinton.

Also the Scarborough LRT will offer greater flexibility when extending the line.

I don't know.. to me it makes more sense upgrading to heavy rail technology for Scarborough (doubling capacity from 15,000 to 30,000) than grade-separating Eglinton east because the ridership projections for the Scarborough corridor (LRT 8000, Subway 9500-14,000) are double what Eglinton's projections are (5400), given that 10,000 is when you switch to subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When you switch you a fully underground ECLRT + Scarborough LRT, peak point ridership on ECLRT is 12,000. 5,400 is for the ECLRT with a partially exclusive ROW east of Don Mills (the current plan)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Let's put it through my politician to English translator:
"If chow is elected, the subway is likely dead"

Any questions?

4 billion? That's the total cost of the subway right? There is a cost to convert the SRT to LRT and grade-separating Eglinton east (because all the Scarborough riders are funnelled onto Eglinton) as well. So there is a base cost that must happen to replace the SRT regardless (since it's almost end of life), and extra costs as result of this decision to grade-separate Eglinton East.

So.. I don't feel the statement "4 billion to eliminate a transfer" is an accurate or full picture of the two options.

Essentially you're taking many of the SRT riders heading downtown off the Bloor subway and putting them onto the Eglinton line instead.

Yup, taking the cost from the TTC themseleves + inflation. This was supposed to be only 2.7 -2.7 billion, now city documents have it at 3.6 billion and climbing. The whole connecting the SRT to the ECLRT would cost 2 billion, or around half. And yes it would raise Eglinton's ridership . The whole original gripe (before the we deserve subways stuff) was that Scarborough people had to transfer to get downtown.

 

[ehlow]

When you switch you a fully underground ECLRT + Scarborough LRT, peak point ridership on ECLRT is 12,000. 5,400 is for the ECLRT with a partially exclusive ROW east of Don Mills (the current plan)

Yeah and fully grade separated LRT has capacity 15,000, so I don't necessarily think dumping all the Scarborough riders on the Eglinton line instead of the Bloor line is a great idea.

Also Bloor can increase capacity with ATC in the future and obviously had way bigger trains, and is already fully grade separated.

Also that way the DRL only has to be built to Bloor to divert riders from Scarborough, instead of Eglinton.

 

[andrewpmk]

I don't know.. to me it makes more sense upgrading to heavy rail technology for Scarborough (doubling capacity from 15,000 to 30,000) than grade-separating Eglinton east because the ridership projections for the Scarborough corridor (LRT 8000, Subway 9500-14,000) are double what Eglinton's projections are (5400), given that 10,000 is when you switch to subway.

Of course if the OMB approves dozens of 20 storey condos along Eglinton west of Don Mills (likely) then ridership will be a lot higher than projected. The urban planning department claims that only "midrise" is allowed but this is not what will actually happen. Look at the U of T residence at College/Spadina for example.

It is hard to tell what the Scarborough subway will be like, but there is only one area that is likely to see more condos (Scarborough Centre). Oddly enough there is no proposed station at Brimley/Eglinton even though there are numerous older apartment buildings there. I can't see Lawrence/McCowan being redeveloped (few strip plazas than can be turned into condos) or Sheppard/McCowan (too close to CP rail yard, sort of like Vaughan Centre).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yeah and fully grade separated LRT has capacity 15,000, so I don't necessarily think dumping all the Scarborough riders on the Eglinton line instead of the Bloor line is a great idea.

Also Bloor can increase capacity with ATC in the future and obviously had way bigger trains, and is already fully grade separated.

Also that way the DRL only has to be built to Bloor to divert riders from Scarborough, instead of Eglinton.

Doesn't the underground ECLRT have a capacity of 20,000?

 

[ehlow]

Yup, taking the cost from the TTC themseleves + inflation. This was supposed to be only 2.7 -2.7 billion, now city documents have it at 3.6 billion and climbing. The whole connecting the SRT to the ECLRT would cost 2 billion, or around half. And yes it would raise Eglinton's ridership . The whole original gripe (before the we deserve subways stuff) was that Scarborough people had to transfer to get downtown.

I thought grade-separating Eglinton alone costs 1.9 billion, but you still have to pay for the SRT to LRT conversion which from google was 2.3 billion.

So wouldn't grade-separating Eglinton and converting the SRT to LRT and connecting the two cost roughly 4.2 billion?

 

[ehlow]

Doesn't the underground ECLRT have a capacity of 20,000?

Then why is the Scarborough LRT projected at 15,000? It's fully grade separated and I would assume handles 3 car trains.

Edit. sorry I meant "why is SLRT expected to have capacity at 15,000", not "projected".

 

[rbt]

The Danforth extension has enough ridership for a subway.

This is the problem with Metrolinx not doing whole network studies. Adding 15 minute service to Milliken, Agincourt, and Kennedy; including fare integration and rerouting of buses to those locations; will significantly impact other nearby proposals like the subway or LRT.

For that matter, will the new GORex or TTC Overground service have fare integration and integrated bus stations?

Metrolinx/TTC needs to be looking at the impacts of all options and choosing the cheapest combination that will serve the area, preferably without political interference from either the mayor, councillors, or MPPs. While there is lots of money on the table, it's still significantly short of being able to build everybody's dreams exactly as they wish it.

Yes, if nothing else was to be built, the area has enough ridership for a subway. What happens when other things which are planned are built? The EA needs to go into this.

 

[ehlow]

This is the problem with Metrolinx not doing whole network studies. Adding 15 minute service to Milliken, Agincourt, and Kennedy; including fare integration and rerouting of buses to those locations; will significantly impact other nearby proposals like the subway or LRT.

For that matter, new GORex or TTC Overground service have fare integration and integrated bus stations?

Metrolinx/TTC needs to be looking at the impacts of all options and choosing the cheapest combination that will serve the area.

Yes, if nothing else was to be built, the area has enough ridership for a subway. What happens when other things which are planned are built? The EA needs to go into this.

Good point. However if GO rapid transit (or whatever it's called) draws riders away from the subway, this further means there isn't a need to grade-separate Eglinton.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I thought grade-separating Eglinton alone costs 1.9 billion, but you still have to pay for the SRT to LRT conversion which from google was 2.3 billion.

So wouldn't grade-separating Eglinton and converting the SRT to LRT and connecting the two cost roughly 4.2 billion?

I thought grade separation would be much, much less. something like ~900 million.

 

[ehlow]

I thought grade separation would be much, much less. something like ~900 million.

Hmm, I got 1.9 billion from here: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4124.shtml

Finally, there was the fact that if the Eglinton LRT returned to the surface east of Brentcliffe Avenue, as much as $1.9 billion could be saved on construction costs — enough to install a surface LRT along Finch Avenue west of Keele and on Sheppard Avenue east of Don Mills.

However here it says 1-1.5 billion:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...first-salvo-at-fords-lrt-plan/article1359564/

Anyways it would obviously cost significantly more to fully grade separate 10km.

 

[datamouse]

Well that didn't take long for the Liberals to waffle.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is a ML report from 2012 that compared the ECLRT underground and partially exclusive ROWs. But I cant find it at the moment.