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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

nhui06 said:
I have a feeling the next step is to extend the Sheppard Subway to Vic Park (maybe even Warden), then run BRT to STC via McCowan. Right now the LRT yard will cost $300 million and was to house both LRTs from Scarborough line (main resident) and Sheppard. Now there are no Scarb LRT, the LRT yard will be kind of a waste. Having a BRT from Vic Park to STC (follow the route of the popular 190), esp with the new Artic buses will make sense.
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BRT is a possibility. However, LRT and the LRT yard make sense, too, if several lines are eventually built in Scarborough.

For example:
1) Sheppard LRT with a branch to STC
2) STC - Centennial College - Malvern Center
3) McCowan North LRT, from STC to Markville Mall / Hwy 7
4) Eglinton - Kingston Road - UofT Scarborough line, from Kennedy subway to Sheppard
 
Eug said:
I too think this is brilliant. This is a win-win situation for the provincial government. Honestly I think the Scarborough residents will be pleased by this for the most part, at least through the next election.

Why? It's a matter optics. They didn't want LRT, and the hail-mary subway plan didn't seem like it was going to fly. So now, the provincial government flies in and says "We'll build the damn thing ourselves because you guys just can't get your assets together."
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This is true.

It should be noted that a large number of transit riders in Scarborough will benefit, although slightly, from the Murray subway. Those coming from the north, east, or south-east, and taking a bus to STC anyway, will benefit from the elimination of transfer at Kennedy.

Those who come from the north-eastern segment would benefit much more from the LRT plan, as they could walk or take a bus to an LRT station east of STC. But the number of such riders is smaller than the first group.

If each rider gets one vote regardless to how much time he/she saves with each plan, then those who prefer Murray subway will outvote those who prefer LRT. If the votes are weighted by the amount of time saved in each case, then LRT is likely to win.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Assuming a portal at Leslie and a cost of $41 Million/km, we're looking at just below $300 Million for the new elevated structures. Hooking it up to the SRT will add a few million more to the cost. Not a bad price in my opinion.
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$300 Million is not going to cut it. For the fully tunneled Eglinton option, the extra cost was $2 billion. Elevated should be cheaper than that, but I would be surprised if it is less than $700 million.

Furthermore, the unified SRT - Eglinton route will cause major capacity issues, both for itself west of Don Mills and for the Yonge line south of Eglinton. To work reliably, such route needs DRL built and extended to Eglinton / Don Mills right away; which is not going to happen that soon.
 
Rainforest said:
$300 Million is not going to cut it. For the fully tunneled Eglinton option, the extra cost was $2 billion. Elevated should be cheaper than that, but I would be surprised if it is less than $700 million.

Furthermore, the unified SRT - Eglinton route will cause major capacity issues, both for itself west of Don Mills and for the Yonge line south of Eglinton. To work reliably, such route needs DRL built and extended to Eglinton / Don Mills right away; which is not going to happen that soon.
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You're right. $41 Million is way too low. It's even lower than the cost/km of ROW.

If there are capacity issues, it can be solved by simply making two different lines.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
You're right. $41 Million is way too low. It's even lower than the cost/km of ROW.

If there are capacity issues, it can be solved by simply making two different lines.
Click to expand...

No. The $41M is the extra to elevate on top of an at-grade LRT.

From Vancouver, the cost for part elevated/part underground transit seems to be in the $100M to $150M range /km, while in median LRT is in the $60M to $80M range. It is about 5.5 to 6 km. There are also several savings that can be had by combining the two lines - Most notably the underground loop for the SRT would not longer be needed and the extra Station at Kennedy would also not be needed (the LRT plan has separate Kennedy Stations on the Eglinton LRT and on the SRT - only one would be needed). I am not sure what the current state of Don Mills Station is, but at one time it was shown with 3-tracks and 2-platforms since it was a major turn-around point. Maybe this concept would now have to be moved to Laird. Anyways, with a fully grade separated line, this station could be build like a normal one.
 
I did a rough estimate on the elevated numbers before, and I believe it was somewhere in the range of $700-800 million extra. Still definitely not chump change, but not insurmountable.
 
There is no need for an underground loop at Kennedy, lrts are dual sided trains meaning it doesn't need a loop like a streetcar.
 
n00b question: So, how come all of a sudden they can build a "subway" there when they couldn't before?

Even if they decide they can account for the tight turns, is going so close to the limits of the technology going to pose a problem down the line?

There was mention of moving things slightly at Kennedy to make it less of a curve, but that doesn't address the second curve.
 
Well it's just that previous descriptions stated that the tight turns made subway unfeasible.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...ay_murray_proposes_shorter_twostop_route.html

Murray said his proposal will work even though the TTC has said for years that larger subway trains can’t make the tight turns on the SRT route.

TTC CEO Andy Byford, who was briefed last Thursday on the provincial plan, along with city manager Joe Pennachetti, said far more study and engineering is required.

He said the new subway proposal would mean rebuilding Kennedy station northwest of its existing location. That would allow the subway to take a gentler curve, leading to an elevated track that would run to the city centre.

“The revised curve from the new Kennedy Station gets you round the problem of the sharp, existing curve,” he said.

However, the curve on the approach to the city centre remains a challenge.

“The other remaining curve and the inclines that would have to take it up to the elevated structure are at the very limit of the design tolerance for a subway,” said Byford.

If the design is deemed feasible, the TTC would then have to take direction from its board on whether to be involved in the project, said Byford.

Although the province is paying for the subway, the TTC would own it.
 
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