Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[allengeorge]

It's pointless posturing

Agreed. As much as I dislike the SSE debacle, and what a money pit this entire project has become, we have to stop changing things. Let's accept the fact that this is gonna cost an arm and a leg, build it, and make smarter choices in the future. If I never hear about this line until it's built I'd be happy.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed. As much as I dislike the SSE debacle, and what a money pit this entire project has become, we have to stop changing things. Let's accept the fact that this is gonna cost an arm and a leg, build it, and make smarter choices in the future. If I never hear about this line until it's built I'd be happy.

I am not against changing the routing, but from subways back to LRT? After all this? Definitely no to that (besides it being a pure fantasy). In any case, it's not a city decision anymore.

AoD

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

LRT is a no-go for me too unless interlining with the Crosstown returns to being an option.

If there was economies of scale savings for ordering more vehicles, I wouldn't be opposed to the SSE converted to the same technology and vehicles as the Ontario Line.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

LRT is a no-go for me too unless interlining with the Crosstown returns to being an option.

If there was economies of scale savings for ordering more vehicles, I wouldn't be opposed to the SSE converted to the same technology and vehicles as the Ontario Line.

You'd have to convert the entire Line 2 and move away from a third-rail based system, not sure if there is much point of that as an extension. ATC? By all means, but that's already projected anyways.

AoD

 

[syn]

Agreed. As much as I dislike the SSE debacle, and what a money pit this entire project has become, we have to stop changing things. Let's accept the fact that this is gonna cost an arm and a leg, build it, and make smarter choices in the future. If I never hear about this line until it's built I'd be happy.

Agreed, let's build this 5 stop Sheppard Line. I'm sure in 2020 we'll be making much smarter decisions.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

You'd have to convert the entire Line 2 and move away from a third-rail based system, not sure if there is much point of that as an extension. ATC? By all means, but that's already projected anyways.

AoD

Oh, I had forgotten that Scarborough transit riders considered transfers an injustice.

I wasn't suggesting converting Line 2, but a spur line from Kennedy Station.

 

[nfitz]

Josh Matlow really shows signs of an unhealthy fixation. Instead of taking care of his own ward, his is fixated with replacing one plan that leaves the Scarborough residents on the bus, with another plan that leaves them on the bus as well.

For the amount of effort to recycle an old motion, I don't blame him, given he's turned out to be 100% right about the issue. Could have been worse, he could have called it the "I Told You So".

 

[Rainforest]

For the amount of effort to recycle an old motion, I don't blame him, given he's turned out to be 100% right about the issue. Could have been worse, he could have called it the "I Told You So".

If Matlow is right in part, that's only because of the managerial ineptitude of Tory's team on the SSE account; not because Matlow has any kind of chrystal ball. It was totally possible to complete the SSE construction from 2014 till 2025, before SLRT goes out of service. The city just missed the chance.

And even then, Matlow is trying to word his motion in a way that implies it saves the riders from being stuck on the buses. While in reality, his proposal would guarantee they are stuck on buses for at least 2 years, more likely for 3+ years.

 

[11th]

Agreed, let's build this 5 stop Sheppard Line. I'm sure in 2020 we'll be making much smarter decisions.

Which is actually a truncated version of phase one of a ten stations line. This is getting old.

 

[nfitz]

And even then, Matlow is trying to word his motion in a way that implies it saves the riders from being stuck on the buses. While in reality, his proposal would guarantee they are stuck on buses for at least 2 years, more likely for 3+ years.

I thought they'd got that down to closer to a year as they were working on the design and staging.

Still, beats ... gosh, if they can keep it going until 2023 ... and 2030s means 2030 (which seems optimistic) ... 7 years on buses.

 

[Deadpool X]

Not to argue that there isn't a transit/transportation issue in Scarborough, but the whole "subway mileage per capita" argument is questionable. I don't live in the City of Toronto proper - but in Peel which had a population larger than North York. Zero subway, one BRT with a fairly pathetic daily ridership and one LRT under construction (value-engineered to fit the budget by the Ford government, certainly nothing deep bored; loop/stations were cut). Should I agitate (as some did last election - using precisely the same rationale) for a subway line with mileage similar to either - especially now that this line is paid for provincially - because subways are about "whether one matters"? You see where I am going with this? Also - if I want to play this "mileage" game, wouldn't it make sense to maximize the amount of subway with a certain amount of cash, instead of building an extension with no net gain in the number of rapid transit stations?

AoD

Is the density of Peel region same as Scarborough's? Will extension to Peel region get same number of riders per km as SSE? I don't think so. Scarborough is a lot closer to downtown and subways make more sense in places closer to downtown than those much further from downtown.

I am in favour of extending Bloor line to Mississauga City Centre but it won't get as many riders per km as SSE (Mississauga extension will be twice as long). Maybe in 20 years when MCC is a lot more developed but not at this stage.

KWC has greater population than Etobicoke but it makes sense to have subway in Etobicoke but not in KWC. So your example of Peel region is not right. North York and Scarborough are comparable, Peel is not.

 

[Deadpool X]

Oh, I had forgotten that Scarborough transit riders considered transfers an injustice.

I wasn't suggesting converting Line 2, but a spur line from Kennedy Station.

Do we have any other example of linear transfer in GTA? No one will like it, why point out at Scarborough? Will Etobicoke riders be okay if they had to change trains (and floors) at Old Mill station to continue their journey? Or if North York riders had to change trains at Lawrence to continue their journey? Please try suggesting these ideas and see what response you get.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I hope voters learn a lesson about not believing snake oil and monorail salesmen from this experience.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Is the density of Peel region same as Scarborough's? Will extension to Peel region get same number of riders per km as SSE? I don't think so. Scarborough is a lot closer to downtown and subways make more sense in places closer to downtown than those much further from downtown.

I am in favour of extending Bloor line to Mississauga City Centre but it won't get as many riders per km as SSE (Mississauga extension will be twice as long). Maybe in 20 years when MCC is a lot more developed but not at this stage.

KWC has greater population than Etobicoke but it makes sense to have subway in Etobicoke but not in KWC. So your example of Peel region is not right. North York and Scarborough are comparable, Peel is not.

I don't believe in a subway to MCC at all (it's an inappropriate use of scarce resource) but let's entertain this:

Distance from Union to MCC - 21 km. Distance from Union to SCC - 18 km

You want to argue on that basis? And you want to argue MCC is less developed than SCC right now (and in the absence of serious form of rapid transit connected to the core)? Don't forget your initial point was about using the simplistic measure of subway miles/capita - and not any other intervening factors - and my point is that you cannot use a measure like this precisely because the what-ifs you yourself just brought into the discussion. You cannot use one flawed criteria, and when shown it is flawed, show me a whole other bunch of criteria to delineate why it should be used.

AoD

 

[AHK]

Do we have any other example of linear transfer in GTA? No one will like it, why point out at Scarborough? Will Etobicoke riders be okay if they had to change trains (and floors) at Old Mill station to continue their journey? Or if North York riders had to change trains at Lawrence to continue their journey? Please try suggesting these ideas and see what response you get.

From what I recall - please correct me if I am wrong - what was being proposed for the Scarborough LRT was a same level, cross platform transfer between the subway and the LRT. Same level - no need to go up / down escalators or stairs. Our own personal experience with a same level cross-platform transfer is at the Longyang Road station on Subway Line 2 between downtown Shanghai and Pudong Airport. Not a problem at all. The repeated hype about how bad such a transfer between the subway and the LRT, based on our actual experience with such - is nonsense, and speaks to both a struggling attempt to justify the otherwise unwarranted enormous expense of an underground heavy rail subway extention, combined with an overwhelming sense of self-entitlement by the Scarborough residents to which the politician class are pandering. Agreed that Scarborough is currently under served by effective transit options - but was the current subway extension plan the most appropriate solution?

If in fact the transfer at Kennedy station would have been over two levels - agreed that would not be the most desirable solution, but as indicated, that is not my recollection of the original plans. If that was indeed the case, my apologies.