Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[blacksquirrels]

Alternatively they could just cancel the extension and build a railway spur to STC (like UPX to Pearson).

This was and still is the only logical option. Stephen Wickens wrote an article about it roughly a year ago.

http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1332

Imagine having intelligent people working at City Hall, Queen's Park and for Metrolinx. Not too much to ask for is it?

 

[picard102]

A Ferrari isn't a generational investment. Infrastructure isn't a personal expenditure.

 

[44 North]

If done, the road profile of McCowan would be raised for 200m or more, not just in the vicinity of the hospital. You'd have to spend a few million re-configuring the entrance to the hospital, but for a chance to save 100's of millions, on subway construction, it's worth it.
Leslie is perhaps a better example where Leslie station is in the valley floor, the East Don River is even closer to the intersection, and yet they still found a way of going over the river. This was in an era when they cared about costs.

Now I'm not certain about this, but if I recall there was affirmation that the hospital would be closed. Maybe someone can fill me in on that. But with that closed it opens the doors for more bridge opportunities I think. Whether exposed bridge, or a waterproof one. Lots of opportunities being missed here.

 

[Rainforest]

This was and still is the only logical option. Stephen Wickens wrote an article about it roughly a year ago.

http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1332

View attachment 234952

Imagine having intelligent people working at City Hall, Queen's Park and for Metrolinx. Not too much to ask for is it?

The concept is great, but this option has a massive external dependency: expansion of the Union rail corridor. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible to support the SmartSpur frequency needed for an intra-city operation.

 

[Rainforest]

You know the LRT crowd didn't need to use that argument to justify its construction. Hey build the LRT because if we wait the construction will cost more in the future. Everything is going to cost more in the future. That isn't an argument if you don't have the money or it's not money wisely spent. Hey honey I know we can't afford a Ferrari but a Ferrari is 300k today. But you know in 2040 you won't be able to buy a Ferrari for less than 500k. See honey it's a bargin to buy it now. What kind of twisted nonsense logic is that. If you want to build a damn subway build the DRL. But the DRL doesn't go to your door so forget that and steal every dollar to the burbs under ridiculous arguments.

Your example is just bad. We totally can afford SSE, and its cost doesn't even stand out of the total transit bill currnelty on the table.

Not a single dollar is being stolen for SSE. Three levels of democratically elected governments made a decision to pool their legally collected / legally borrowed resources to get this project built.

Whether you like it or not, this is how the public administration works. Otherwise, anyone who dislikes a particular government program would claim that the funding for that program is being "stolen".

 

[Rainforest]

So your argument is that the SSE is going to produce shitty results but Eglinton west is even shittier therefore build the SSE? Where exactly do you live again?

SSE results aren't shitty by any account. 11,000 pphpd at peak is a pretty decent number.

No I don't live anywhere near the SSE route. It wouldn't bring subway next to my door, nor will it shorten my bus ride to the closest subway station. I observe a gigantic anti-Scarborough bias displayed by a number of posters, and that bias needs to be countered. That's my main motivation for posting in this thread.

The Eglinton West example has been given to highlight that bias. The Eglinton West counts are actually shitty, and you don't disagree with that. And yet, all your sarcastic passion is firmly glued to the SSE project, despite its counts being much better.

 

[Rainforest]

It's no wonder so little is ever accomplished on the transit front in this city. Fifteen years later and we STILL don't know wtf is happening with this and everyone is STILL arguing whether it should be this, that or some other thing.

Forget Hemmingway, Kafka should have taken up residency instead.

Fair words, but this time the saga might be approaching its conclusion. If the SSE tunneling contract is awarded in 2021 as scheduled, then the tunneling will be under way and largerly immune to any government changes after the 2022 elections. Once the tunnels are built, it will be hard for a government of any stripe to abandon them instead of completing the project. That won't be just the launch shaft that Mike Harris filled back, but a solid 7 km of tunnels.

Nothing is guaranteed until it is actually built, but I am 70% optimistic at this point.

 

[sixrings]

A Ferrari isn't a generational investment. Infrastructure isn't a personal expenditure.

Oh you're right. The SSE is an investment. A multi billion dollar luxury investment while we are skimping on the DRL. Good work Toronto.

 

[sixrings]

SSE results aren't shitty by any account. 11,000 pphpd at peak is a pretty decent number.

No I don't live anywhere near the SSE route. It wouldn't bring subway next to my door, nor will it shorten my bus ride to the closest subway station. I observe a gigantic anti-Scarborough bias displayed by a number of posters, and that bias needs to be countered. That's my main motivation for posting in this thread.

The Eglinton West example has been given to highlight that bias. The Eglinton West counts are actually shitty, and you don't disagree with that. And yet, all your sarcastic passion is firmly glued to the SSE project, despite its counts being much better.

Hey I'm an advocate for Eglinton west to be surface level. It isn't my wish to bury everything. Congrats on being a contrarian. Some contrarians just like to do the opposite since it makes them feel that they are somehow thinking for themselves. All the experts are saying one thing. Damn it they must be wrong.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

This was and still is the only logical option. Stephen Wickens wrote an article about it roughly a year ago.

http://worldwidewickens.com/?p=1332

View attachment 234952

Imagine having intelligent people working at City Hall, Queen's Park and for Metrolinx. Not too much to ask for is it?

Not to mention it can eventually be extended to serve the Seaton suburb that is under development.

 

[Steve X]

The concept is great, but this option has a massive external dependency: expansion of the Union rail corridor. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible to support the SmartSpur frequency needed for an intra-city operation.

Ultimately they could connect Scarborough to Union like that but as an interim solution, they could just terminate the spur at Kennedy as the SRT replacement. Of course creating a railway spur would require the SRT to shut down for up to 5 years before a replacement is completed. The subway extension aims to avoid having riders bussed between STC and Kennedy during the replacement project.

Oh you're right. The SSE is an investment. A multi billion dollar luxury investment while we are skimping on the DRL. Good work Toronto.

I'm sure they would like to use lighter trains and cheaper on all extension if possible. The tunneled Eg west would require a smaller tunnel to fit both tracks oppose to Scarborough or Yonge North plus shorter platforms. Eg west would be cheaper.

 

[JSF-1]

The subway extension aims to avoid having riders bussed between STC and Kennedy during the replacement project.

I always love seeing this because buses is exactly what Scarborough is almost certainly going to get. Lets face it the SRT isn't going to last to 2030 (or lets be realistic, somewhere between 2032-2035 due to inevitable delays). So what do we do? Do but Vancouvers Mk.I's? They don't have drivers cabs which is no problem to me but the TTC certainly isn't on board with the idea of the SRT being ATO, especially when winter rolls around. How much money do we sink into the SRT to keep it running? At what point would the cost of preserving what we have out way updating the SRT to modern Innovia standards? Obviously though we can't do that either since upgrading the SRT renders the SSE moot. Bustitution is inevitable and I don't look forward to it. Hell we don't even have enough spare buses or garage space to replace the SRT. What if we do decide to purchase more buses to replace the SRT, who pay's for that? The SSE is a provincial project so are they going to shell out the money to buy new buses and a new garage? Are they going to pay for Vancouver's trains. because Vancouver isn't going to just give us their Mk.I's for free. You already know the answer to this. Scarborough is screwed for the next decade or so because the project we are hinging all our ambitions on is still 10+ years away and we have no plan for the interim when the shit hits the fan.

 

[Steve X]

I always love seeing this because buses is exactly what Scarborough is almost certainly going to get. Lets face it the SRT isn't going to last to 2030 (or lets be realistic, somewhere between 2032-2035 due to inevitable delays). So what do we do? Do but Vancouvers Mk.I's? They don't have drivers cabs which is no problem to me but the TTC certainly isn't on board with the idea of the SRT being ATO, especially when winter rolls around. How much money do we sink into the SRT to keep it running? At what point would the cost of preserving what we have out way updating the SRT to modern Innovia standards? Obviously though we can't do that either since upgrading the SRT renders the SSE moot. Bustitution is inevitable and I don't look forward to it. Hell we don't even have enough spare buses or garage space to replace the SRT. What if we do decide to purchase more buses to replace the SRT, who pay's for that? The SSE is a provincial project so are they going to shell out the money to buy new buses and a new garage? Are they going to pay for Vancouver's trains. because Vancouver isn't going to just give us their Mk.I's for free. You already know the answer to this. Scarborough is screwed for the next decade or so because the project we are hinging all our ambitions on is still 10+ years away and we have no plan for the interim when the shit hits the fan.

I think in 5 years, the SRT would be on its last legs. I wouldn't be surprised if they only keep the SRT open during weekdays from 6am-8pm. Honestly the 903 express bus takes about the same amount of time between STC to Kennedy than to have to wait and transfer to the SRT. At lighter times, shutting down the SRT and extending express buses to Kennedy isn't a bad idea. They won't need a new garage as long as they can keep the SRT running in rush hour.

As to why does it take 12-15 years to build a friggen subway, only Doug Ford can tell you. With only 3 stations, they shouldn't screw up so badly. If they can tunnel within 2 years (2021-2023) and give 6 more years to construct the stations, this thing should open in 2029. Meanwhile tunneling, they can relocate utilities. Hopefully ML has gain experience from the Crosstown that they need to start digging once the contract is awarded and not wait 3 years to relocate utilities and demolish stuff.

If the 2 contracts go out as planned, there is hope this will finish by 2030. Funding is usually the biggest hurdle that hopefully we shouldn't have to worry about.

 

[drum118]

I think in 5 years, the SRT would be on its last legs. I wouldn't be surprised if they only keep the SRT open during weekdays from 6am-8pm. Honestly the 903 express bus takes about the same amount of time between STC to Kennedy than to have to wait and transfer to the SRT. At lighter times, shutting down the SRT and extending express buses to Kennedy isn't a bad idea. They won't need a new garage as long as they can keep the SRT running in rush hour.

As to why does it take 12-15 years to build a friggen subway, only Doug Ford can tell you. With only 3 stations, they shouldn't screw up so badly. If they can tunnel within 2 years (2021-2023) and give 6 more years to construct the stations, this thing should open in 2029. Meanwhile tunneling, they can relocate utilities. Hopefully ML has gain experience from the Crosstown that they need to start digging once the contract is awarded and not wait 3 years to relocate utilities and demolish stuff.

If the 2 contracts go out as planned, there is hope this will finish by 2030. Funding is usually the biggest hurdle that hopefully we shouldn't have to worry about.

If they stay the course for converting the SRT to LRT as plan, the line would have open in 2018, but most likely no cars for it base on TTC 204 order.

I have no hope in seeing the line opening in 2030. Then when will the tender be issue for 6 more trains that will most likely be TR cars that can become ATO once Line 2 upgrade is done by 2035???

Sometime by 2030, TTC will replace the SRT with buses due to the cost of keeping it open and working.

 

[Steve X]

If they stay the course for converting the SRT to LRT as plan, the line would have open in 2018, but most likely no cars for it base on TTC 204 order.

I have no hope in seeing the line opening in 2030. Then when will the tender be issue for 6 more trains that will most likely be TR cars that can become ATO once Line 2 upgrade is done by 2035???

Sometime by 2030, TTC will replace the SRT with buses due to the cost of keeping it open and working.

You got a point. They can finish but there won't be any trains till they sort out the ATC issue.