Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

Funny enough. this slide right here demonstrates why, even back when I lived in Scarborough (near UTSC), why I was so staunchly opposed to the Scarborough Subway Extension proposal.

Metrolinx, you mean to tell me that after investing some $4.5 Billion in capital expenditures to build the SSE, you're projecting that from the furthest reaches of Scarborough (my old area), this thing would save me a whopping seven minutes on my ~1 hr 15 min commute Downtown? Like, are you kidding me? This isn't a selling point Metrolinx; it's laughable.

Over time I've some to support the subway extension, but only because we've been going in circles about this for nearly twenty years. I could very easily be persuaded to support cancelling the Line 2 extension and mothballing the SRT entirely (the SRT is something I never found to be particularly useful), in favour of building a network of BRT across Scarbrough, improvements to GO regional transit, and perhaps the construction of the Relief Line North. I've run the numbers on those options before, and unlike the SSE, those would've shaved an enormous amount of time off my commute both within Scarborough, and between Scarborough and Downtown. The Scarborough Subway has no reason to exist with this network in place.

There's absolutely no way that given a $4.5 Billion investment, this thing is what would yield the greatest time savings for people in Scarbrough. Yea, we're gonna spend $4.5 Billion on three underground stations to save a tiny subset of Scarborough commuters a few minutes on their hour long commute. Meanwhile, for the other 90% of transit users in Scarborough, their commutes will get substantially worse as congestion on the streets increase. That commute from UTSC to Kennedy was already insufferable five years ago; imagine what it'll be like in 10 years.

But yay, come 2030, you'll be able to ride to Scarborough Centre in the darkness of an underground train.

View attachment 234346

With the current RT, Kennedy is a 10 minute ride from STC. Replace that with the 22 minute bus ride and the current setup is actually 2 minutes faster LOL!

Fordian economics. People deserve subways. Let's spend $5 billion to make your ride 2 minutes longer.

I'm happy to see billions invested in Scarborough transit...can we just do it in a way that makes sense?!

This is nearly half the cost of the Ontario Line, a project far more important to the health of the system (and Scarborough riders), and one they're inexplicably cheaping out on.

Build a full capacity OL/Relief Line to Don Mills. Extend Sheppard to STC (at least).

Could've been a lot more likely if the Scarborough LRT was completed.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Only on Urbantoronto would the suggestion to demolish and relocate tertiary campuses to suit the anti-subway narrative even be entertained; meanwhile Keele Campus of York U, though remote in a far-flung corner of North York, had a subway built out to reach it; and we are in the near construction phase of a grade-separated station at Humber College north campus.

Seems like only Scarborough's transit needs gets shat on.

I don't really think equating York University to Centennial College's Progress campus is going to win any argument.

The subway plan isn't even going to reach those far-flung campuses. If you wanted to make the subway plan more attractive, and Scarborough Town Centre into more of a downtown area, I would say that relocating those campuses to STC would be a great way to win-over subway naysayers.

 

[syn]

I don't really think equating York University to Centennial College's Progress campus is going to win any argument.

The subway plan isn't even going to reach those far-flung campuses. If you wanted to make the subway plan more attractive, and Scarborough Town Centre into more of a downtown area, I would say that relocating those campuses to STC would be a great way to win-over subway naysayers.

What we're seeing is the difference between planning for the subway as though it's suburb vs a higher density urban environment.

I completely understand why the thought of moving a college campus seems absurd. UTSC has some very nice areas. It opened before nearly a decade before STC. It's kind of like telling someone in Mississauga to move UTM to Downtown Mississauga.

The problem is that Scarborough is so poorly designed this $5 billion subway extension isn't going to have a very dramatic impact on ride times for most people in Scarborough, especially those going to one of these campuses.

Sheridan has placed (and is expanding) a campus in downtown Mississauga, a wise investment for both them and the city. All of this was done without the benefit of any kind of rapid transit connection.

Centennial opening a new campus or moving their existing campus to the STC area with city and government support makes a lot of sense.

Scarborough can't remain a poorly designed suburb if they expect a $5 billion extension (and another extension along Sheppard). These are the kind of drastic measures that will be necessary to justify the investment.

 

[sixrings]

What we're seeing is the difference between planning for the subway as though it's suburb vs a higher density urban environment.

I completely understand why the thought of moving a college campus seems absurd. UTSC has some very nice areas. It opened before nearly a decade before STC. It's kind of like telling someone in Mississauga to move UTM to Downtown Mississauga.

The problem is that Scarborough is so poorly designed this $5 billion subway extension isn't going to have a very dramatic impact on ride times for most people in Scarborough, especially those going to one of these campuses.

Sheridan has placed (and is expanding) a campus in downtown Mississauga, a wise investment for both them and the city. All of this was done without the benefit of any kind of rapid transit connection.

Centennial opening a new campus or moving their existing campus to the STC area with city and government support makes a lot of sense.

Scarborough can't remain a poorly designed suburb if they expect a $5 billion extension (and another extension along Sheppard). These are the kind of drastic measures that will be necessary to justify the investment.

UTSC has to remain because of the pan am games swimming pool.

 

[Hopkins123]

I rarely get genuinely angry. This post makes me angry, and I'm going to ask you to leave UT and never come back. This is a forum for literate people, with at least some modicum of decency and willingness to read; clearly, you don't qualify.

I'm pro-SSE and just said that again.

I'm completely fed up with posters so lazy that they literally can't read up the page before commenting.

Sorry if I hit a nerve but the comment wasn't even directed at you specifically. It was more of a "WTF! Why are we discussing relocating the Town Centre or post secondary campuses to suit the narrative that everything must be centralized in Scarborough to Kennedy Station because we are too cheap or mean to expand further outwards." reflexive statement, if anything.

No need to call for me to go away or anything drastic. I'm entitled to my opinion.

 

[44 North]

If anyone bother to read the Preliminary Design Business Case (it's one step ahead of Eg West which is just an IBC), it outlines how they'll tunnel using 2 TBM.


It implies they'll fit both tracks in the same tunnel.

Lawrence East Station would be built at the excavation shaft.

Hmm interesting. So single bore like the City's plan. But using two of the monstrous TBMs to do it. So much for my hope of seeing a bridge and Old Mill type station at Lawrence.

 

[Steve X]

Hmm interesting. So single bore like the City's plan. But using two of the monstrous TBMs to do it. So much for my hope of seeing a bridge and Old Mill type station at Lawrence.

That wouldn't even be possible as the Highland Creek ravine is only 60-70m wide while the Humber is 250m. As the Humber is much more likely to flood, a bridge is more wise there. Thus Eg West would get a bridge over the Humber too.

The Old Mill type bridge is really bad for the environment. It'll do damage to the ravine as well as killing birds. Best to avoid another Old Mill station.

 

[Rainforest]

The locations of the Centennial campus and the UTSC campus are just fine, no need to relocate them.

Travel between the two UofT campuses matters to some degree. On the other hand, the whole point of setting a satellite campus far from the primary one is to make it more accessible to the students living far from the main campus. If the main goal was to minimize the travel time between the campuses, then the satellite should have been set at St Clair West subway station and the travel time would be under 15 min.

Quite a few UTSC students are coming from the east, including from Durham region. Moving the campus west or southwest would increase their travel times. Furthermore, a sizeable campus adds appeal to the area, providing employment opportunities (teaching positions, on-campus retail), some students rent rooms in the vicinity, etc. If all objects of interest are moved away from the area, then how can we expect the large section of Scarborough east of McCowan to develop density. It is much preferable to leave the campus in place, and build reliable transit connections to the subway as well as outside. EE LRT and the Pulse / Ellesmere BRT are a good start.

The Centennial campus, too, can be connected to the STC and Sheppard/McCowan subway stations with improved transit. That campus isn't even that far from STC, and can blend with the "McCowan Precinct" in the future.

 

[Steve X]

The locations of the Centennial campus and the UTSC campus are just fine, no need to relocate them.

Travel between the two UofT campuses matters to some degree. On the other hand, the whole point of setting a satellite campus far from the primary one is to make it more accessible to the students living far from the main campus. If the main goal was to minimize the travel time between the campuses, then the satellite should have been set at St Clair West subway station and the travel time would be under 15 min.

Instead of connecting UTSC with St George, if they just build the EELRT with a better connection at Guildwood GO and more frequent and faster RER trains, the trip could be under an hour. Of course they'll have to include more discounts to make this feasible for students. The Scarboriugh subway doesn't really help anyone south of Sheppard, just a replacement for what's already there.

 

[BurlOak]

Hmm interesting. So single bore like the City's plan. But using two of the monstrous TBMs to do it. So much for my hope of seeing a bridge and Old Mill type station at Lawrence.

It's very hard to propose any transit in Toronto, because you know the planners will make an overpriced disaster out of any route chosen.
This Scarborough subway is ~8km long and $4.8B capital cost - That's $600M per km.
Unless they can cut that cost in half (like everyone was expecting when first proposed), maybe it should be shelved.
Nobody is suggesting ways of reducing costs, the debate it simply between LRT and tunnelled, and not about value.

 

[cplchanb]

It's very hard to propose any transit in Toronto, because you know the planners will make an overpriced disaster out of any route chosen.
This Scarborough subway is ~8km long and $4.8B capital cost - That's $600M per km.
Unless they can cut that cost in half (like everyone was expecting when first proposed), maybe it should be shelved.
Nobody is suggesting ways of reducing costs, the debate it simply between LRT and tunnelled, and not about value.

They really shouldve just stuck with their first plan to modernise what theyve got with new stations and new trains. This wouldve been completed last decade at far less cost. Instead with our first world entitlement issues
we have ballooned this to an impossible political football. They should just cancel this and restart from scratch.

 

[Steve X]

It's very hard to propose any transit in Toronto, because you know the planners will make an overpriced disaster out of any route chosen.
This Scarborough subway is ~8km long and $4.8B capital cost - That's $600M per km.
Unless they can cut that cost in half (like everyone was expecting when first proposed), maybe it should be shelved.
Nobody is suggesting ways of reducing costs, the debate it simply between LRT and tunnelled, and not about value.

No one wants to go back to the pre-SRT era of just returning to buses. You can't really compare the cost of these projects today to 10-15 years ago. Inflation and the raising real estate has to be factored into the cost.

With ML planning the SSE, it must be this alignment as they'll take over the SRT tracks for GO expansion. This was a mistake by the late Ford by signing the MOU with the Liberals at that time and it probably included not building anything along the current SRT alignment. There's been meetings back in the Byford era that says the SRT alignment isn't available anymore. Of course Byford being a subway supporter also pushed for the tunnel option. As a subway extension is selected, it must be tunneled with TBMs. There are way too many private driveways to cut and cover and buying all the properties on one side is an massive expense.

I feel like the project is just past the point of any other options. Either build it like this or tell Scarborough to stick with buses. There isn't much ways to cut cost unless they go back to the one stop option. Alternatively they could just cancel the extension and build a railway spur to STC (like UPX to Pearson).

 

[44 North]

That wouldn't even be possible as the Highland Creek ravine is only 60-70m wide while the Humber is 250m. As the Humber is much more likely to flood, a bridge is more wise there. Thus Eg West would get a bridge over the Humber too.

The Old Mill type bridge is really bad for the environment. It'll do damage to the ravine as well as killing birds. Best to avoid another Old Mill station.

I don't know about any of this. That width doesn't seem right. And I wouldn't have thought width would be a deal breaker when it comes to building bridges regardless. W. Highland actually seems quite similar to Mimico Ck. I don't think anyone worries about the subway getting washed out there.

And I see lots of birds under bridges. They make it a habitat.

 

[Rainforest]

Alternatively they could just cancel the extension and build a railway spur to STC (like UPX to Pearson).

The railway spur could be a good solution, but it should have been taken seriously long ago, like in 2014 or 2015. In order to enable the required frequency, upgrades for the whole Union rail corridor would be needed. But, those upgrades would bring multiple other benefits, in addition to a better Scarborough connection.

Way too late for that now. The subway needs to be build, as the only reasonable option that has no external dependencies. No more resets.

 

[sixrings]

The railway spur could be a good solution, but it should have been taken seriously long ago, like in 2014 or 2015. In order to enable the required frequency, upgrades for the whole Union rail corridor would be needed. But, those upgrades would bring multiple other benefits, in addition to a better Scarborough connection.

Way too late for that now. The subway needs to be build, as the only reasonable option that has no external dependencies. No more resets.

When it was lrt and fully funded it wasn't too late to debate but now that this thing has ballooned it is too late to debate? Sure sounds more like once the momentum turned to subway which you advocate for you coincidentally are too tired of debating and the show must go on no matter the cost.