Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Midtown Urbanist]

That's a loaded question intended to justify a stop. Yes 4km seems like a large stretch but every dollar saved is a dollar which could go to the Eglinton east lrt project which serves more people. Every dollar used on the danforth extension meanwhile somehow justifies we don't have money for Eglinton east lrt construction. In a world where money didn't matter we would have both. We live in a word where every dollar matters.

Still doesn't strike me as bold enough of an approach. We are already committing ourselves to fund the subway. There is significant uplift potential around the station.

If it was me in the Mayoral seat, I would slap a TIF zone around the entire area, permit higher densities, and use the proceeds to fund the stop at Eglinton and Danforth.

Instead, Mattamy Homes is just building some crappy townhouse development fronting on Eglinton.

 

[sixrings]

Still doesn't strike me as bold enough of an approach. We are already committing ourselves to fund the subway. There is significant uplift potential around the station.

If it was me in the Mayoral seat, I would slap a TIF zone around the entire area, permit higher densities, and use the proceeds to fund the stop at Eglinton and Danforth.

Instead, Mattamy Homes is just building some crappy townhouse development fronting on Eglinton.

LRT can help the uplift potential around the area. As we can see from the development proposals on Eglinton developers don't hate lrt the way some subway advocates on this board do.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

LRT can help the uplift potential around the area. As we can see from the development proposals on Eglinton developers don't hate lrt the way some subway advocates on this board do.

The LRT doesn't have funding committed. The subway (sorta) does, and is passing through the intersection anyway. One doesn't preclude the either, I have no issues with making both Kennedy and Eglinton/Danforth into interchange stations between LRT and Subway.

Just saying, anyway. I don't foresee this happening in the east.

 

[sixrings]

The LRT doesn't have funding committed. The subway (sorta) does, and is passing through the intersection anyway. One doesn't preclude the either, I have no issues with making both Kennedy and Eglinton/Danforth into interchange stations between LRT and Subway.

Just saying, anyway. I don't foresee this happening in the east.

And isn't that the problem. The lrt doesn't have funding committed although it was promised that the subway extension wouldn't happen without Eglinton east lrt funding as well. You suggested raising taxes to be bold to build one stations but the government has had the chance to raise taxes to build Eglinton east lrt and it's crickets. I can't suggest throwing more money at this project while ignoring a perfectly good project which was promised as the same time.

 

[NotAToy]

Tell that to The Annex, Rosedale, Downsview, Summerhill, Cedarvale, Willowdale, Clanton park, The Peanut (Don Valley Village), Scarborough Junction, every neighborhood in the East end, All of East York, Mt. Dennis, Islington, etc.

Likewise, what would downtown and old Toronto be without the streetcar network?

You need both, albeit, in different forms. You need the fast rapid transit that can take you anywhere in the city (the subway) and you need the more local yet still quick Light Rail Transit & Bus Rapid Transit on other, higher-order corridors. Eglinton East, the Scarborough-Durham BRT, the McCowan BRT, the Sheppard East LRT/BRT (In some form, whether it was east of McCowan or east of the Relief Line North Terminus) was supposed to provide that local service. This subway is supposed to connect with numerous major bus routes in Scarborough, providing that hub-and-spoke system we see in every other suburban center in this city.

Scarborough barely has one, and it's at the southwest corner of it. The entire area has been transit starved for decades. If you want to change the dynamic of that area of the city, you're going to have to invest in both.

I'm saying that above ground might serve more people here, as well as probably being cheaper. I'm not saying that there can't be above ground in downtown, or a subway in the suburbs.

Sorry, I think you misunderstand I'm talking about currently who 1% politician, who still supports the plan? Over last decade it is only 1 elected official here. Out of all the current Mayors, Premiers, (and runner up) Scarborough councillors, MP's and MPPs only one Councillor is supportive of the transfer plan when given the option

Also LRT as a technology Is more then fine and was never the issue. What is not fine is the boxing in of LRT as a technology that can only be built as per the Transit City design. There were so many glaring flaws from connectivity to grade seperation amongst other issues.

Scarborough Centre should be integrated, and connected to the main City arteries. If this could have been done thru LRT, great. If you truly believe we should be adding more transfers in front of the Centre to save some coin, then that's your issue now.

It almost had to be subway on Sheppard to prevent an absolutely absurdly placed transfer to the subway stub. The Crosstown LRT could have connected thru the Centre seamlessly to replace the RT as Rob Ford and Dalton McGuinty agreed to. And the BDL thru more cost effect methods or alignment was also a reasonable alternate to provide convenient, connected rapid transit to the Centre. The current alignment is adding some larger benefits with more central stop locations and after this nonsense that went on in the City to defend two very poor designs I'm happy to see the line fixed with stops and pushed forward to address Sheppard subway.

I'll leave the SMLRT alone as it's is being repaired as EELRT to become adequate from its own TC design issues.

Yes, it is clear as you state many just want cheaper for Scarborough, no one can deny that statement. But the extra transfers, transfers before the Centre and questionably rapid transit does not work better as you want it to be believed. And the cost financially and politically from outside Scarborough City Polticians fighting to prevent these important details from being addressed has been the greatest cost of all to them and anyone else.

I must have misunderstood your post. If so, sorry.

I'm not trying to cheap out Scarborough or anyone anywhere. BD line still requires a transfer to get to where most people want to go (at BY). I remember reading somewhere this was going to be deep down. Maybe I remember wrong. Anyways, I think this is the wrong place to put our transit dollars into right now.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

And isn't that the problem. The lrt doesn't have funding committed although it was promised that the subway extension wouldn't happen without Eglinton east lrt funding as well. You suggested raising taxes to be bold to build one stations but the government has had the chance to raise taxes to build Eglinton east lrt and it's crickets. I can't suggest throwing more money at this project while ignoring a perfectly good project which was promised as the same time.

Just a point of clarification, there wouldn't be any raising of taxes with a TIF. It is more like borrowing future expected property tax revenues to use today, with the expectation that the investment today will increase property tax revenues tomorrow.

We're on the same page. I spent the past few minutes staring at Scarborough on Google Maps and I am amazed at the number of development opportunities along the Crosstown East routing. We have a housing crisis, like why aren't we building Crosstown East, and why on earth is Crosstown West being prioritized (even if somewhat vaguely when it comes to timelines and funding).

Do we really need to wait for the right provincial government to come around? I think the City of Toronto has the capacity to build it ourselves.

 

[OneCity]

Still doesn't strike me as bold enough of an approach. We are already committing ourselves to fund the subway. There is significant uplift potential around the station.

If it was me in the Mayoral seat, I would slap a TIF zone around the entire area, permit higher densities, and use the proceeds to fund the stop at Eglinton and Danforth.

Instead, Mattamy Homes is just building some crappy townhouse development fronting on Eglinton.

The development potential around both the Brimley and Danforth intersection is huge. It would be a big short sighted miss to run the subway thru without a stop even with an EELRT, BRT or rapid bus feeding from east to west. But given what the City tried to build as a subway, just having the stops at Lawrence is a relief

Just a point of clarification, there wouldn't be any raising of taxes with a TIF. It is more like borrowing future expected property tax revenues to use today, with the expectation that the investment today will increase property tax revenues tomorrow.

We're on the same page. I spent the past few minutes staring at Scarborough on Google Maps and I am amazed at the number of development opportunities along the Crosstown East routing. We have a housing crisis, like why aren't we building Crosstown East, and why on earth is Crosstown West being prioritized (even if somewhat vaguely when it comes to timelines and funding).

Do we really need to wait for the right provincial government to come around? I think the City of Toronto has the capacity to build it ourselves.

Interestingly enough the City is pushing forward with a dedicated bus lane study for the EELRT corridor. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/12/05/ttc-proposes-dedicated-bus-lanes-for-5-busiest-routes/ Seems like an odd thing to do if the EELRT was going to receive funds from the old SSE levy and move forward this decade.

Inevitably it will be up to the City to decide on how those old levy funds are spent between the SOGR, Waterfront LRT and EELRT and if they have the will to lobby the other levels of Government, mainly the Feds for the top up thru the infrastructure funds.

 

[OneCity]

I'm saying that above ground might serve more people here, as well as probably being cheaper. I'm not saying that there can't be above ground in downtown, or a subway in the suburbs.

I must have misunderstood your post. If so, sorry.

I'm not trying to cheap out Scarborough or anyone anywhere. BD line still requires a transfer to get to where most people want to go (at BY). I remember reading somewhere this was going to be deep down. Maybe I remember wrong. Anyways, I think this is the wrong place to put our transit dollars into right now.

The location of a transfer can matter quite a bit and has been a problem on the RT both for commuters along Lawrence, Ellesmere and or he Centre for decades. It has also been a hindrance of the Centre as an attractive place to grow for this massive Borough within the City of Toronto. The RT has various concerns, but to have the transfer anywhere before the Centre which is slated (since the subway approval) for massive re-development is a slap in the face to the entire Borough. It made zero sense, aside from saving a few bucks. As also pointed out in the recent business case and something Ive said many times is that commuters coming from Durham and UTSC will soon be able to take a BRT to the subway and go towards Downtown and vice versa. The is one less transfer, and one less point of failure and faster then the EELRT to Kennedy. Time saving, convenience, connectivity and reliability should be the most important criteria when investing in long term transit. That is not saying McCowan was the right option, as much as I like it, Im aware of the costly challenges and acknowledge there were other reasonable options both LRT and subway to achieve what should have been the main criteria. All of which the City shot down at one time or another, unfortunately.

Introducing a new transfer to those commuters connecting to the Sheppard to a subway stub was another another sign of disrespect to commuters and Central Scarborough for such a large investment. There was no reasonable excuse not to be connecting the Centre to a main artery in the City. Modifying the stub to LRT if possible to be fair to all residents or extend the subway here were the only helpful options when upgrading.

It was very unfortunate details like improved connectivity, transfer location impacts, and grade separations where not taken seriously at the City level. While it seemed like a clever way to save money for some, we've paid for it financially and politically far larger then any short term savings that was hoped, and rightfully so.

Neither here nor there at this point anyway, the City Opposition holding us back from doing better or a reasonable discussion has been fully removed from the equation and all parties at the Provincial level has some form of unity with almost all politicians from all stripes and levels within Scarborough

 

[syn]

That's a loaded question intended to justify a stop. Yes 4km seems like a large stretch but every dollar saved is a dollar which could go to the Eglinton east lrt project which serves more people. Every dollar used on the danforth extension meanwhile somehow justifies we don't have money for Eglinton east lrt construction. In a world where money didn't matter we would have both. We live in a word where every dollar matters.

I think the unfortunate reality is that the area doesn't have the density and ridership to justify closer stop frequencies. As Metrolinx's own studies have shown, there isn't much justification for a subway extension at all.

Hopefully they can implement this as sensibly as possible.

 

[asher__jo]

Introducing a new transfer to those commuters connecting to the Sheppard to a subway stub was another another sign of disrespect to commuters and Central Scarborough for such a large investment.

Having a transfer does discourage transit use, but disrespecting Scarborough is all a bit much. It's not some big conspiracy that the suburbs has less transit. It's because areas with lower density cannot support higher order transit because ridership-critical density is not there. Upzoning areas to create a critical mass can change this however.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Having a transfer does discourage transit use, but disrespecting Scarborough is all a bit much. It's not some big conspiracy that the suburbs has less transit. It's because areas with lower density cannot support higher order transit because ridership-critical density is not there. Upzoning areas to create a critical mass can change this however.

It's not a conspiracy, but it sure feels like one for the people who live there.

Once you factor in the Eglinton Crosstown and remove the RT, you see that Scarborough is just a transit desert, and it's been this way forever.

 

[asher__jo]

I actually think Toronto has been proven remarkably good at bringing transit to all parts of the city, much more than virtually any other North American city with its bus network. That being said, I so support a subway to Scarborough and also to Mississauga.

 

[Steve X]

I actually think Toronto has been proven remarkably good at bringing transit to all parts of the city, much more than virtually any other North American city with its bus network. That being said, I so support a subway to Scarborough and also to Mississauga.

Depends on how you define Scarborough. Line 2 already goes to Scarborough by the definitely east of Victoria Park.

A think a bunch of us on here support more transit to more place in Scabrborugh than putting all the eggs in one basket with one expensive Line 2 extension to replace something already built.

Even if they just rehabilitate the SRT with a fraction of the cost and extended Line 4, that would have been a better investment. Places like Malvern would never see rapid transit in the next 30 years with the ongoing transit plans.

 

[asher__jo]

That is my definition

 

[OneCity]

Depends on how you define Scarborough. Line 2 already goes to Scarborough by the definitely east of Victoria Park.

A think a bunch of us on here support more transit to more place in Scarborough than putting all the eggs in one basket with one expensive Line 2 extension to replace something already built.

Even if they just rehabilitate the SRT with a fraction of the cost and extended Line 4, that would have been a better investment. Places like Malvern would never see rapid transit in the next 30 years with the ongoing transit plans.

First off, Malvern should have already had a subway stop if the City wasn't monkeying around trying to spread watered down butter across the toast with the transfer plan, Secondly now that we have long moved on, Malvern is on the books to receive an EELRT stop, and the City has no reason not to deliver with the SSE levy available , Thirdly, The Sheppard subway is supported by all Provincial parties so a connected line will now be on the book to follow the Line 2 extension and it will certainly go to Malvern. While some outsiders love to use Malvern as their goto to justify a watered down the plan, oddly enough Malvern voters are some of the largest subway and line 2 supporters. The previous NDP councilor Shan was constantly having to clap back at the entitled Downtown transit rich Councillor who wanted to dictate and talk over people far outside the wealthy little ward he was elected to. The highest level prejudice and entitlement we've seen. It was almost as bad as the self interested union and activist groups talking over residents at meetings to claim Transit City as 'evidence-based' and force feeding the plan. What a charade.

I get it sounds great to say lets 'add 50 stops' of LRT but the reality is its not what has been needed moreso when most was not even going to be grade separated. For the most part the bus east of McCowan moves well outside of the unreliable frequency and that can easily be addressed with dedicated bus lanes where necessary if we need a fix. There we go, that easy, 100's of stops and express routes. already built if we need too.

What was actually required in a plan was better connectivity to North, and Central Scarborough to the main transit arteries in the City since most resident dont even bother with public transit here unless they have to, as the its only reliable for mostly local commutes, that is not the issue that needed addressed. Non-grade separated LRT on Shepaprd and SMLRT would only really help current commuters with no improvement to attract car riders outside of slightly more reliable frequency. And the insane part is we'd remove car lanes in some area while adding very little upgraded benefit in the network. Atleast now we have gone back to grade seperate key areas of EELRT and it will be feeding into a Centrally connected rapid artery and It will now be a nice piece as part of the network. Adding the Sheppard transfer was cutting off the Centre further from what is now, hindering attractiveness for economic growth and make public transit less likely to be used based for the inconvenience and extra point of failure alone. This shouldnt even have been a question.

I get the desire to be cost effective, but only for ways that ensure we build with detail that enhances not only current commutes but attracts new riders, and connects main areas best. The uncompromising desire to low ball the importance of connectivity, and grade separated transit was completely over the top. We missed decades of opportunities to find other solutions and have a proper discussion of the details that truly mattered in growing a network.

Atleast the Province with any party at he helm has transit in a a more holistic lens, which aligns with the voters here in Scarborough with no interference to cut corners in the name of 'Malvern'.