Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
In what way? The stop spacing?
Yeah the stop spacing looks bizarre on a map, but they are actually evenly spaced out an average of ~800m from what I remember, perfectly normal for rapid transit.
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Yeah the stop spacing looks bizarre on a map, but they are actually evenly spaced out an average of ~800m from what I remember, perfectly normal for rapid transit.
OneCity
Senior Member
I really dont have time or moreso dont care to delve deep into this guys archives for all his exact quotes more then i have. But a quick search in the period prior to him becoming a poltical head gave enough to do the math.
https://stevemunro.ca/2012/06/26/one-city-to-serve-them-all/#comments
"There is an argument to be made for the BD extension, but especially in a form where it does not end at Scarborough Town Centre, and where it does not pre-empt building a network of other services, notably the Sheppard and Scarborough-Malvern LRT lines."
https://stevemunro.ca/2010/06/08/furious-george-has-a-plan-part-i-transit/#comments
"..... If the BD line goes to STC, it will not follow the RT alignment, ... "
As for the rest of the plan outside of the completely absurd non central transfer placements on the RT and on Sheppard, I also agree with Steve here:
https://stevemunro.ca/2010/04/11/saving-transit-city/#comments
" I happen to agree with you that Miller is overselling the “rapid” part"
Like most posters in this thread very few saw a transfer LRT plan as the choice for the upgrade initially. It never made sense to anyone and even less on Sheppard. Then it became a 'thing' for 'expert reasons' being promoted heavily thru the media like nothing before. Then that 'thing' was held as the holy grail of transit planning for the outside Scarborough (mostly left wing) Politicians to protect as an 'expert plan' to fight Ford with when it was called out. The transfer LRT lines were mainly fueled and promoted from the start and still to this day by the union and NDP tied transit activist groups which consistently talked over residents at the meetings and pretended to be the voice. It was unfortunate to see Steve begin to slide further towards these political groups that had no real interest in finding solutions to a heavily flawed plan or working with our actual residents from the start.
Keep in mind 99% NDP, Liberals, and Conservative Politicians within Scarborough all agreed with Ford the plan was not good. This was very hard to tell if you only read the local and Toronto media. Yet in 2020, Steve expected the Province to show a comparison of the transfer LRT line in a report trying to fix a City butchered one stop subway? Dear lord it's very much clear a few outside Scarborough residents, moreso their politicians in this City are so politically polarized here they would rather see the City implode then give the Conservative credit for fixing real mistakes. It sucks the Liberals did nothing to help either the LRT or subway plans, and I have little doubt aside from a slower timeline these Conservative will agree to lines that can never be overturned by people who live here and will actually use the transit.
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Hopkins123
Senior Member
I'll never be convinced that the stops at Falmouth and Mason are necessary. Too close respectively to Midland and Markham Rd. Kingston/Eglinton and Guildwood Pkwy could be consolidated into a single stop at Golf Club Rd. West Hill CI is only useful during school hours and 3 stops at UTSC, none of which actually penetrate the campus grounds directly is wasteful and a missed opportunity not to build a more centralized station accessible to all buildings on site.
A few grade separations like what's proposed elsewhere on the Crosstown would make this project more viable. Also superficial to have it route to Malvern. Beyond UTSC it could continue on a northeasternly axis to terminate at the Zoo. Since Sheppard East LRT is likely never happening this would be a good way to serve the northeast.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
If building the subway anyway on an alignment passing by Brimley/Danforth and Eglinton, why not place a station there? Does a 4km gap in between stations (Kennedy to McCowan and Lawrence) seem reasonable to you?
Voltz
Senior Member
Your stop spacing is to far with some of those stops removed, losing Guildwood creates a 1.5Km gap, West Hill leaves a 2km gap. There is a bus loop planned at Kingston and Eglinton, with a storage track, there needs to be a stop there. And the two stops in the UTSC campus are more than close enough to the campus buildings
Allandale25
Senior Member
I really dont have time or moreso care to delve deep into this guys archives for all his exact quotes. But a quick search in the period prior to him becoming a poltical head gave enough to do the math.
https://stevemunro.ca/2012/06/26/one-city-to-serve-them-all/#comments
"There is an argument to be made for the BD extension, but especially in a form where it does not end at Scarborough Town Centre, and where it does not pre-empt building a network of other services, notably the Sheppard and Scarborough-Malvern LRT lines."
Furious George Has A Plan (Update 2)
Updated June 8, 2010 at 11:00 pm: The Smitherman campaign has posted a backgrounder to his transportation plan which has been updated to reflect the funding of inflation by Queen’s Park. In a…stevemunro.ca
"..... If the BD line goes to STC, it will not follow the RT alignment, ... "
Thanks for finding it. Appreciate the follow up.
That said, and happy to agree to disagree on this, someone saying there's an argument to be made for something really isn't that strong of endorsement. Everything I've read from him (and I don't have time to read his reply to each comment) indicates that he is first priority has been the LRT option to replace the RT.
An "argument to be made" could also be interpreted as simply mentioning a possible positive benefit of the only option going ahead. Given the context of the comment, if Smitherman had become Mayor it's possible the subway would have been extended to STC. Duguid was still in cabinet and Glenn was still on Council after all.
A passage in his latest post (which I have a sense you may have not seen because you're not a fan) shows he still thinks LRT would be better:
OneCity
Senior Member
First, my point was he wasn't agaisnt the subway extension previously. I didn't bother to go back further then 2010 which was even post TC, but feel free too if you still have doubt. The guy doesn't deserve my time in relation to this topic more then I have already.
Secondly, If he has not moved on to LRT the addresses the issues, many of which even he previously acknowledged and the people who live here have been vocalizing with the transfers then it is pretty pathetic. And I highly question his anti Conservative political motives that have increasingly escalated in recent years and I see him as part of the problem in this City as another biased outside Scarborough resident rambling on about a flawed plan agaisnt the people who live here for political reasons
Maybe if it was Smitherman we would have seen all stripes on City council work better to address the issues? But the Conservatives and Ford had to be stopped, and still must because? Well becasue they might have taken credit for a good plan. Which I expect we should finally now see, since no one can interfere.
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Allandale25
Senior Member
^ Okay, I think with that last post I understand your point a little better now. I was just curious about the "also of note he was previously an underground Scarborough subway supporter,".
OneCity
Senior Member
As I said I didn't bother digging for his exact exact quotes from the past, nor will i further. But a quick search of him in 2010 above showed him stating he sees a case for the subway and it wont be on the RT corridor, so that alone kinda makes it very difficult to imagine a majority elevated subway going anywhere else.
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Allandale25
Senior Member
^ No need to go back further. While I appreciate the effort and response, I just doubt there would be a statement from him saying he supports the subway instead of LRT replacing the SRT. Arguing for something hypothetically as part of a discussion if something is the only option, like a subway, is different to me than stating a preference of one thing over another.
In 2007 here and 2009 here it seems pretty clear what he supported.
In 2007 here and 2009 here it seems pretty clear what he supported.
OneCity
Senior Member
I never implied that he only supported a subway, nor would expect anyone in this UT realm to be that naive to think that was even remotely possible for 'Mr. Streetcar' himself to be a main subway advocate.
But I do think it's quite significant that someone so politically and geographically biased and overly supportive of the Transit City transfer plan even to this day has stated numerous times he does certainly see the case for a subway.
Also says alot to me right there, about his hypocrisy now when rambling on in 2020 about this old transfer filled plan, even he is on the record of stating the Transit City plan was not very 'rapid'. Dear lord the issues here are crystal clear, be a part of the solution or move the on.
Very thankful this vocal outsider influence and nonsense politics is being ignored, and we can fix the real issues with both lines now that we have overwhelming consensus Provincially and Locally in this massive Borough.
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NotAToy
New Member
About that 1% of politicians against the plan, so the Globe, Star, Sun and National post all supported them? Sounds rather silly.
This is not about one form of transit vs another, but about what works best. In this suburban climate, I think that LRT/above ground works better (and is cheaper).
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Tell that to The Annex, Rosedale, Downsview, Summerhill, Cedarvale, Willowdale, Clanton park, The Peanut (Don Valley Village), Scarborough Junction, every neighborhood in the East end, All of East York, Mt. Dennis, Islington, etc.
Likewise, what would downtown and old Toronto be without the streetcar network?
You need both, albeit, in different forms. You need the fast rapid transit that can take you anywhere in the city (the subway) and you need the more local yet still quick Light Rail Transit & Bus Rapid Transit on other, higher-order corridors. Eglinton East, the Scarborough-Durham BRT, the McCowan BRT, the Sheppard East LRT/BRT (In some form, whether it was east of McCowan or east of the Relief Line North Terminus) was supposed to provide that local service. This subway is supposed to connect with numerous major bus routes in Scarborough, providing that hub-and-spoke system we see in every other suburban center in this city.
Scarborough barely has one, and it's at the southwest corner of it. The entire area has been transit starved for decades. If you want to change the dynamic of that area of the city, you're going to have to invest in both.
OneCity
Senior Member
Sorry, I think you misunderstand I'm talking about currently who 1% politician, who still supports the plan? Over last decade it is only 1 elected official here. Out of all the current Mayors, Premiers, (and runner up) Scarborough councillors, MP's and MPPs only one Councillor is supportive of the transfer plan when given the option
Also LRT as a technology Is more then fine and was never the issue. What is not fine is the boxing in of LRT as a technology that can only be built as per the Transit City design. There were so many glaring flaws from connectivity to grade seperation amongst other issues.
Scarborough Centre should be integrated, and connected to the main City arteries. If this could have been done thru LRT, great. If you truly believe we should be adding more transfers in front of the Centre to save some coin, then that's your issue now.
It almost had to be subway on Sheppard to prevent an absolutely absurdly placed transfer to the subway stub. The Crosstown LRT could have connected thru the Centre seamlessly to replace the RT as Rob Ford and Dalton McGuinty agreed to. And the BDL thru more cost effect methods or alignment was also a reasonable alternate to provide convenient, connected rapid transit to the Centre. The current alignment is adding some larger benefits with more central stop locations and after this nonsense that went on in the City to defend two very poor designs I'm happy to see the line fixed with stops and pushed forward to address Sheppard subway.
I'll leave the SMLRT alone as it's is being repaired as EELRT to become adequate from its own TC design issues.
Yes, it is clear as you state many just want cheaper for Scarborough, no one can deny that statement. But the extra transfers, transfers before the Centre and questionably rapid transit does not work better as you want it to be believed. And the cost financially and politically from outside Scarborough City Polticians fighting to prevent these important details from being addressed has been the greatest cost of all to them and anyone else.
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sixrings
Senior Member
That's a loaded question intended to justify a stop. Yes 4km seems like a large stretch but every dollar saved is a dollar which could go to the Eglinton east lrt project which serves more people. Every dollar used on the danforth extension meanwhile somehow justifies we don't have money for Eglinton east lrt construction. In a world where money didn't matter we would have both. We live in a word where every dollar matters.