Brampton: Mt. Pleasant Mobility Hub

[TOareaFan]

Thanks for showing exactly why I'm not believing this plan. The electorate doesn't want spending of precious precious money on sidewalks or bike lanes, or anything that's not for their car, because they're "underused". With an electorate like this, what makes you think Brampton would successfully build this plan?

Nice job trying to extrapolate my oppositions to bike lane spending on other spending......I am quite good at stating my own opinion...and in this case it is that I do not need you stating it for me. I am opposed to large expenditures by Canadian municipalities on bike lanes at this time because we have so much catch up to do on transit infrastructure that we do not need to divert it away to underused (even in good weather) bike lanes.....I said nothing of sidewalks, nor other non car spending......so the next time you want to spew garbage...make sure it is your own.

 

[kettal]

They're all part of the same thing, though. Transit will never be a success in a community which is not walkable or bikeable. You can build the best transit line in the world, but it will never be sustainable if it's ridership is limited by how many parking spots are around the station.

 

[junctionist]

I don't think the goal was ever to build a car free neighbourhood but, rather, to build one where people do not have to rely on cars one where car free is an option. That GO station will still have to serve people/commuters from outside the commuter hub...that GO station already has full parking lots now and the hub is just in the planning stages......again, these issues/ideas are never just black and white...ginger or marie anne type decisions.

Who said the goal was to build a car free neighbourhood? With lower density around higher order transit, the ridership can never be that high, and just a handful benefit because their 2500 square foot detached houses happen to be beside a GO station. If Brampton wanted to build an attractive hub, the surface parking lots should be eliminated with substantial density right beside the station. The parking then goes underground.

Also, bike lanes add safety to the most vulnerable users of the road. Are more dangerous conditions for cyclists a positive development for Brampton?

 

[ShonTron]

Who said the goal was to build a car free neighbourhood? With lower density around higher order transit, the ridership can never be that high, and just a handful benefit because their 2500 square foot detached houses happen to be beside a GO station. If Brampton wanted to build an attractive hub, the surface parking lots should be eliminated with substantial density right beside the station. The parking then goes underground.

To be fair, you have to start somewhere. Given that Brampton wants to redevelop the parking lot at the downtown GO station, give a bit of credit. No one else in 905-land has seriously proposed that.

The housing across Highway 7 is unfortunate (but they are townhouses, not 2500 sq ft homes of 1980s Brampton).

 

[junctionist]

To be fair, you have to start somewhere. Given that Brampton wants to redevelop the parking lot at the downtown GO station, give a bit of credit. No one else in 905-land has seriously proposed that.

The housing across Highway 7 is unfortunate (but they are townhouses, not 2500 sq ft homes of 1980s Brampton).

Brampton is handling their downtown properly, but there's no reason for them to handle Mount Pleasant station in a mediocre way. If 905-land doesn't do that, then every municipality there deserves to be criticized.

Also, looking at the housing across Bovaird, I see some townhouses but also plenty of semi-detached houses and some detached. But look at what has recently built just northwest of the station for what's even more unfortunate than that lacklustre development south of 7. Here's a glimpse. That subdivision has the benefit that residents don't even have to walk across a busy arterial and parking lot to get to the station, yet look at the density there. Those have to be 2500 square foot homes in this section of 2000s Brampton at a prime site by Mount Pleasant GO station.

 

[TOareaFan]

They're all part of the same thing, though. Transit will never be a success in a community which is not walkable or bikeable. You can build the best transit line in the world, but it will never be sustainable if it's ridership is limited by how many parking spots are around the station.

In my opinion, though, it is a matter of priortizing and every nickle taken out of transit to put into bike lanes is a watering down of the efficiency of the transit investment. Again, my words had nothing to do with maintaining parking lots/spots but a far more efficient way of getting people to transit to GO stations to lessen the reliance on those parking spots is investing in local transit and making that more efficient and closer to the user, not investing in bike lanes and hoping significant numbers of people will cycle to the GO.

 

[TOareaFan]

Who said the goal was to build a car free neighbourhood?

You didn't and I am sorry for implying/inferring (never know which it is) that you did. But your concern with there being more parking suggested to me (maybe innappropriately) that this was your goal/vision. If you accept that any GO station will have mixed modes of passenger delivery then the car will always be one of those....the farther afield that people are drawn to the station the more necessary that parking is. The Mt. Pleasant station does (and always will) serve a fairly large geographic area that already fills the existing parking.....so if it is to continue to draw people it will need additional parking (along with the "mobility hub" to encourage non-car users close by) to make it a continued success as a commuter station.

Are more dangerous conditions for cyclists a positive development for Brampton?

No.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

I helped design the planned development and, IMO, it is definitely one of the highest quality TOD we've seen yet in the GTA. They're keeping all the "traditional" GO uses (parking, etc.) on the south side of the tracks, while the north side will be a mixed use, mixed density development by Mattamy Homes. You technically could live "car free" here, if you work downtown, and pick up groceries before hopping on the GO Train/Bus home.

First phase plan looks good in my opinion, for a new development around a GO station.
http://www.brampton.ca/en/Business/planning-development/Documents/CD/OS/Master Plan PHASE 1.pdf

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Probably should also be noted that it isn't a "Mobility Hub" in Metrolinx's perspective (i.e. included in the RTP), but the City is pushing hard to get it included in its list.

 

[kettal]

299, it's a very impressive plan for sure. Is the west side of Street D set to be a retail strip? Do you know why it is left out of phase 1?

 

[299 bloor call control.]

The area is zoned mixed-use, and last I worked on it (two years ago), it was to be a low rise condo building with retail along the bottom. That area is part of the last phase of the community (phase two moves to the north), and it somewhat makes sense to hold off until last to ensure there's enough residential to support more retail.

It could also be that they're holding off on the mixed use component until they see how the rest of the community picks up.

The name of the community is Mount Pleasant Village. You wouldn't believe what the original name was going to be: "Serenity at Mount Pleasant"

 

[TOareaFan]

The name of the community is Mount Pleasant Village. You wouldn't believe what the original name was going to be: "Serenity at Mount Pleasant"

Too much Seinfeld!!!

 

[CDL.TO]

Probably should also be noted that it isn't a "Mobility Hub" in Metrolinx's perspective (i.e. included in the RTP), but the City is pushing hard to get it included in its list.

However, it doesn't meet Metrolinx's criteria for Mobility Hubs since it is not located at an interchange of two Metrolinx-planned rapid transit lines.

 

[Tithian]

Overall, this is a good idea, but there are a few foundational problems with this plan.

For one, anyone who rides the Georgetown GO Train knows that Mount Pleasant station is currently under-serviced. There are currently only 4 trains that stop at Mount Pleasant. Look for yourself, the trains are highlighted in green. Despite being called the 'Georgetown Line', the Georgetown GO Train more often ends its service at Bramalea Station, two stations short of Mount Pleasant, and the train doesn't run on weekends or off-peak hours. Metrolinx wants to increase the Georgetown train to as much as 300 trips per day, but who knows when that project will be completed, if ever. I have my doubts.

For another thing, why are we investing in TOD development in the middle of a greenfield, at the periphery of the GTA? For a TOD mixed-use site to be economically sustainable, it needs to not only provide amenities to the people who live within the development, it also needs to attract people from outside the development as well. Why would I, a Torontonian, ever want to get on the Train to go out to Mount Pleasant? Even if I lived near Bramalea Station, would I get on the train to go to Mount Pleasant? Even if GO increases service, the service will still be oriented toward Toronto, and most of the trains will operate during rush hours... not conducive to bringing in consumers to the neighborhood.

Finally, nobody that lives in this development is going to live car-free. See points one and two. You're basically out in the country, and having a car is just part of the culture there. What's more, you can't really live car free there. Where's the school? Where is your municipal services centre? I'll bet anything the mixed-use retail that emerges will be limited to a couple bourgie boutiques, a Sobey, a Gap or similar discount clothes retailer, a Starbucks, and probably a Inuit Art Gallery or something. Where's the home-owner going to go for furniture, lumber, peat moss...

I'm very sceptical.

 

[doady]

For one, anyone who rides the Georgetown GO Train knows that Mount Pleasant station is currently under-serviced. There are currently only 4 trains that stop at Mount Pleasant. Look for yourself, the trains are highlighted in green. Despite being called the 'Georgetown Line', the Georgetown GO Train more often ends its service at Bramalea Station, two stations short of Mount Pleasant, and the train doesn't run on weekends or off-peak hours. Metrolinx wants to increase the Georgetown train to as much as 300 trips per day, but who knows when that project will be completed, if ever. I have my doubts.

And not building TOD will improve the situation how?

For another thing, why are we investing in TOD development in the middle of a greenfield, at the periphery of the GTA? For a TOD mixed-use site to be economically sustainable, it needs to not only provide amenities to the people who live within the development, it also needs to attract people from outside the development as well. Why would I, a Torontonian, ever want to get on the Train to go out to Mount Pleasant? Even if I lived near Bramalea Station, would I get on the train to go to Mount Pleasant? Even if GO increases service, the service will still be oriented toward Toronto, and most of the trains will operate during rush hours... not conducive to bringing in consumers to the neighborhood.

It is currently on the periphery, and yet it is already beign serviced by 5 different bus routes. I don't think people will much have trouble getting to Mount Pleasant in the future. It is not like Brampton is full of hubs, there will not be much competition. There are only 3 GO station in Brampton, and one of them cannot have residential development. That leaves two GO stations than can have TOD.

Mount Pleasant Village is not aimed to be the next Downtown Toronto. It is not even meant to be the next Downtown Brampton. It is not meant to attract people from across the GTA or across Brampton, and there is no reason for it to.

Finally, nobody that lives in this development is going to live car-free. See points one and two. You're basically out in the country, and having a car is just part of the culture there. What's more, you can't really live car free there. Where's the school? Where is your municipal services centre? I'll bet anything the mixed-use retail that emerges will be limited to a couple bourgie boutiques, a Sobey, a Gap or similar discount clothes retailer, a Starbucks, and probably a Inuit Art Gallery or something. Where's the home-owner going to go for furniture, lumber, peat moss...

I'm very sceptical.

Should all mixed-use hubs have a furniture store, hardware store, lumber yard???? Is anyone's car-free lifestyle seriously threatened because they can't walk to Ikea? How often do people actually shop at these kind of places? I think a Sobey's and Starbucks will be enough. Bourgeois boutiques would be very impressive...