Brampton: Mt. Pleasant Mobility Hub

[ShonTron]

Some time this year, the number of trains departing Mount Pleasant will more than double - as all trains that terminate at Bramalea (except the one-off AM peak local train) will continue to Mount Pleasant. GO's just been really slow with the work at Brampton Station that will allow it, all the double and triple tracking needed on the Halton Sub is complete and ready to go.

 

[TOareaFan]

Some time this year, the number of trains departing Mount Pleasant will more than double - as all trains that terminate at Bramalea (except the one-off AM peak local train) will continue to Mount Pleasant. GO's just been really slow with the work at Brampton Station that will allow it, all the double and triple tracking needed on the Halton Sub is complete and ready to go.

As I have mentioned in other posts...I am quite furious that those trains have not already been extended....for years the lack of double track was the reason given....now it is some lame excuse that it can't happen until Brampton has two platforms complete and in use...that is a crock. The two platforms will be the ideal and will come...in the meantime they could, if they wanted to, extend the service now using one platform at Brampton.

I wrote my MPP about this....got some form response about all of the work going into the Georgetown corridor and how that it will be 2015 before the line got full service. My reply reminded her that my question was not about that future expanded service but the existing service that could easily be extended to Mt. Pleasant....no response - nor do I expect one. It seems that no one is willing to even look at extending these trains until the conditions are "ideal".

 

[Tithian]

Should all mixed-use hubs have a furniture store, hardware store, lumber yard???? Is anyone's car-free lifestyle seriously threatened because they can't walk to Ikea? How often do people actually shop at these kind of places? I think a Sobey's and Starbucks will be enough. Bourgeois boutiques would be very impressive...

Look, I like the idea of Transit Oriented Development as much as the next guy, but I think it's more effective when its situated in urban infill areas.

People choose to live in the exurbs because they like the conveniences the exurbs hypothetically offer, not the least of which is ease of car ownership and uncongested roads. Considering that you can't even build a condo in downtown Toronto without including parking, how can we possibly expect suburban home-owners to suddenly give up their cars?

I think people will be attracted to Mount Pleasant Village because they will like the pedestrian-oriented design, and I think the real estate sales will be brisk, but I still think it will prove to be economically unsustainable.

Too many people will still choose to drive off-site to do their primary shopping. By the very nature of the development, the on-site grocery store will probably be upscale and have slightly higher prices than stores located off-site, and we should never underestimate the lengths people will go to to save a dollar. My parents, for instance, like to drive to a native American reservation in New York to buy tax-free cigarettes. Now, I think that's silly and mildly disgusting, but then, I'm not the type of person who chooses to live in Brampton... My parents are. Of the couple hundred (thousand?) units within the Mount Pleasant subdivision, I'm guessing maybe half will choose to shop locally, and I don't think that will be enough. If the mixed-use retail isn't successful in pulling people in from outside the subdivision, the businesses there will not make enough money. If the mixed-use retail doesn't have parking, they won't pull people in from outside the subdivision... because the train won't be sufficient to drive in consumers.

Furthermore, since the parking for the train station is being located on the south side of the tracks, and the retail development is planned for the north side of the tracks, people who drive into the station are unlikely to even expose themselves to the retail.

Like I've said, I like TOD, but we need to apply it in the right way, and in the right places. In this case, as in many cases, I think TOD is being applied lazily by developers who just want to create a product they can sell. Once they've sold all their units, the developers won't give a damn whether the design works or not. Planners, meanwhile, are wonderful, idealistic people who unfortunately don't realize that their ideals are still in the minority.

 

[kettal]

Why would the retail would be any less successful than your typical suburban plaza with a Macs milk, Second Cup, dry cleaner, and perhaps a few offices. It won't draw people from far and wide, but it doesn't have to.

 

[doady]

Look, I like the idea of Transit Oriented Development as much as the next guy, but I think it's more effective when its situated in urban infill areas.

Well, urban infill areas are already quite transit-oriented aren't they? So I don't the term transit-oriented development is relevant for urban infill areas.

People choose to live in the exurbs because they like the conveniences the exurbs hypothetically offer, not the least of which is ease of car ownership and uncongested roads. Considering that you can't even build a condo in downtown Toronto without including parking, how can we possibly expect suburban home-owners to suddenly give up their cars?

I don't see how the condos of downtown Toronto could have any impact on the mode of transport of people who live 30 km away from downtown Toronto. Even if they did, does that mean that a place like Downtown Brampton should be razed to the ground? Should Brampton Transit be trashed?

I think people will be attracted to Mount Pleasant Village because they will like the pedestrian-oriented design, and I think the real estate sales will be brisk, but I still think it will prove to be economically unsustainable.

Too many people will still choose to drive off-site to do their primary shopping. By the very nature of the development, the on-site grocery store will probably be upscale and have slightly higher prices than stores located off-site, and we should never underestimate the lengths people will go to to save a dollar.

So let me get this straight:

"People choose to live in the exurbs because they like the conveniences the exurbs hypothetically offer, not the least of which is ease of car ownership and uncongested roads," and yet the pedestrian-oriented qualities of Mount Pleasant Village will attract "exurbanites" so overwhelmingly as to dramatically raise value of properties, goods and services? And yet at the same time, these same exurbanites who so highly demand these properties, good and services at Mount Pleasant Village, will not purchase any of these properties, goods or services?

Of the couple hundred (thousand?) units within the Mount Pleasant subdivision, I'm guessing maybe half will choose to shop locally, and I don't think that will be enough. If the mixed-use retail isn't successful in pulling people in from outside the subdivision, the businesses there will not make enough money. If the mixed-use retail doesn't have parking, they won't pull people in from outside the subdivision... because the train won't be sufficient to drive in consumers.

Furthermore, since the parking for the train station is being located on the south side of the tracks, and the retail development is planned for the north side of the tracks, people who drive into the station are unlikely to even expose themselves to the retail.

First of all, I'm still not sure why you insist that TOD must attract people from far away, especially when most transit itself is designed for short distances, and one of main objectives of TOD is to reduce the distances that people travel to promote walking.

Second of all, every retail has a certain geographic range. Convenience stores are much closer together than department stores for example. Therefore, not all retail at Mount Pleasant Village will have to attract people from outside Mount Pleasant Village to be successful.

Like I've said, I like TOD, but we need to apply it in the right way, and in the right places. In this case, as in many cases, I think TOD is being applied lazily by developers who just want to create a product they can sell. Once they've sold all their units, the developers won't give a damn whether the design works or not. Planners, meanwhile, are wonderful, idealistic people who unfortunately don't realize that their ideals are still in the minority.

How would it have been better if Mount Pleasant was surrounded by regular suburban development? Exactly how does that benefit TOD in other places? How exactly would regular suburban development been better for Brampton or Toronto or the GTA in any way?

 

[TOareaFan]

As I have mentioned in other posts...I am quite furious that those trains have not already been extended....for years the lack of double track was the reason given....now it is some lame excuse that it can't happen until Brampton has two platforms complete and in use...that is a crock. The two platforms will be the ideal and will come...in the meantime they could, if they wanted to, extend the service now using one platform at Brampton.

I wrote my MPP about this....got some form response about all of the work going into the Georgetown corridor and how that it will be 2015 before the line got full service. My reply reminded her that my question was not about that future expanded service but the existing service that could easily be extended to Mt. Pleasant....no response - nor do I expect one. It seems that no one is willing to even look at extending these trains until the conditions are "ideal".

Hate to quote myself but it gives some context to this post.

Last night was the perfect example of why those trains need to be extended to Brampton and Mt. Pleasant immdediately (after all, the track has been built). Taking commuters who went to work by train and then took the train home only to dump them out of the train 1 or 2 stops early onto buses is never ideal for ridership development....doing it on the snowiest evening commute of the winter so far and then not having the buses waiting for them and making them wait a full 25 minutes in the snow without a single effort towards customer service/communication is abysmal and actually leads to losing ridership. Not only did we witness the usual grumbling "I'll never use this service again" (which is usually forgotten the next day) we actually witnessed people abandoning GO on the spot....people calling home to have someone pick them up and take them (either home or to the station where they left their car)....people calling cabs to take them away and others wandering over to Brampton Transit buses..etc etc. All the while the tracks (both the old single tracks and the new double tracks) never saw a train movement....in fact the train that brought them to Bramalea sat there for close to 10 of those 25 minutes....the guy in line next to me was a new customer (took the train to work that day because of the weather trying to avoid a lengthy drive home).....first time on the train...had no idea the train did not take him to Mt. Pleasant (his fault, sure, for not reading the schedule but he knew there was a train and assumed it went all the way to his station)....it was funny listening in on his call home to his wife to explain that the train stops at Bramalea.....it was even funnier seeing him stare at the train sitting there not going anywhere while he waited for a phantom bus!...he was one of the people who wandered off.....likely forever!

Back when the tracks were single I used to believe that the single track was just an excuse for not extending the trains....afterall....how many freight trains run between Mt. Pleasant and Bramalea on your typical week night in that window of time it would take for the train to go to Mt. Pleasant and then back?.....not many....certainly last night the number was zero.

Now, however, that the track is doubled and there is no issue it is an absolute disgrace that GO is trotting out the incomplete platform at Brampton as the new excuse....it makes you wonder what the next "reasoning" will be once that platform is complete? It is hardly comforting that they (and my MPP) have failed/refused to even answer the question "when do you plan to extend those trains past Bramalea"....I have a growing fear that the answer is "not any time soon".

 

[TOareaFan]

^isnt't this interesting. On a positive note, a lady from GO just called me in response to my customer service comment about last night.

On a negative note, she just advised me that there are no plans to extend the off peak service beyond Bramalea until there is much greater demand. Essentially, the trains are needed elsewhere.

It is my opinion (which I shared with her) that the demand is waiting for the service....I don't know anyone who enjoys switching from that 6:45 train to a bus....I do know several people who don't use GO but would if they could rely on the 6:45 train getting through to Brampton or Mt. P.

So, the extension of these trains is not (as GO had been saying) on the double tracking...nor is it waiting for the south platform at Brampton to open (as some suggested)...it is waiting for demand to increase....I guess getting that train back to Union so that it can take people to Oshawa or Oakville (not sure which it is) is more important.

Right now I am quite angry.

 

[Dan416]

I really don't believe that i has to do with "demand". It might have to do with how much it costs to run the train further, but lack of demand just makes zero sense to me. That's like saying there was no demand for more trains to and from Milton. We had 6 in/6 out up until last year when it got bumped to 7 in/7 out. But if they just ran trains during off-peak hours (which aren't being used anyway) instead of the train-buses they run right now, they could use all those Milton buses on the other lines. If you look at the schedules, I think it's clear that the Milton line runs the most off-peak buses out of all of the lines (since Lakeshore doesn't have buses). Admittedly, the trainsets we have right now would be overkill on ANY of the lines off-peak outside of Lakeshore, including Milton. But if they did run them on Milton, why wouldn't ridership be as high as on Lakeshore West when the trains run through very similar communities in Mississauga and beyond? Surely it'll take the time for people to realize that the service is THERE, as it hasn't existed up to now (a lot of people won't take a bus, but they'll take a train).

Further to that, money is the reason behind lack of half-hourly service on Lakeshore. And again, our oversized trainsets. We really need some smaller trains that we could run in the off-peak ever 15-30 minutes.

 

[doady]

It is just GO's mandate to serve motorists only. Brampton and Mt Pleasant are just not car-oriented enough for expanded service. After all, Brampton station is actually busier than Bramalea...

 

[kettal]

I don't have much faith in what these customer service types say. They probably aren't informed about extended service, any more than we are, at this point.

Why would they be spending so much on double tracking and building a new platform at Brampton, if not for the new service?

 

[TOareaFan]

Folks...I can only tell you what she told me and she said there is going to be an announcement soon about "major service improvements" on all lines but in particular the Georgetown line (that might just because that is what we were talking about) commencing in early April (I think she said the 5th) but on Georgetown the announcement would only be about new bus service and that no plans were in place to change/increase rail service on the line until demand increases.

 

[Dan416]

I don't have much faith in what these customer service types say. They probably aren't informed about extended service, any more than we are, at this point.

Why would they be spending so much on double tracking and building a new platform at Brampton, if not for the new service?

I'm (reluctantly) forced to agree with kettal. Logic win.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm (reluctantly) forced to agree with kettal. Logic win.

Generally I am in favour of logic....but since the elimination of the single track sections has been done for a while and there is not extension of these trains and since there appears to be no intention to extend these trains in the April service adjustments....I guess I am forced to believe the word of the GO person who called.....hope she/I prove to be wrong.

 

[hwy7]

I hope and pray the person you talked to at GO just didn't know what was going on behind the scenes.

Unfortunately, she was probably right that there will be no increases in service. But I think she made up the bit about the demand. I've seen mid-day Lakeshore trains that are practically empty, yet GO plans to implement half-hourly service on that line (not that I think that's a bad idea--all increases in service are good news, in my mind). Meanwhile, GO runs a fairly frequent and well-used evening bus service on the Georgetown line, a fact that is even more impressive when you consider how much most people like taking the bus.

I can understand the logistical difficulties in extending the mid-day Bramalea trains to Mount Pleasant. Since it's only one train and they shuttle it back and forth with very little time between runs, GO would have to decrease the already infrequent service (a bad idea) or add another train (probably made impossible by construction on the Georgetown South corridor). But I find it hard to believe that the 6:45 can't be extended to Mount Pleasant, or at least to Brampton.

 

[ShonTron]

A two-train scenerio can work, and work fine if GO continues with a "less than hourly" service. Even hourly service can work, it would require full use of the Woodbine Racetrack passing siding, and Malton is getting a lot of work right now, including a second platform. I think it can be done to provide a decent enough schedule in the short-to-medium term, at least until the CP Diamond is half-finshed (the first phase) and the Dufferin Jog rail work complete. There would effectively be double or triple track except between Highway 27 and St. Clair, and with creative scheduling (especially as GO is taking over the corridor from CN), hourly service could be easily accomplished without even the ARL project.