2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

[steveintoronto]

As terrible as the situation maybe through decades of miscalculations, an Ontario/Quebec arrangement is probably a good outcome from a national perspective.

AoD

As long as Ontario isn't locked into a long-term contract that may prove beneficial in the short-term, not so in the long-term. One has to look no further than the Churchill Falls project to realize that, albeit Newfoundland was literally 'asleep at the switch' on it:
Search Results
From bad to worse: Churchill contract renewal means even less ...
www.cbc.ca/.../newfoundland.../upper-churchill-contract-renewal-means-less-money-for...
Sep 1, 2016 - With the province of Newfoundland and Labrador earning less than ever ... 1 renewal clause extends the notorious 1969 deal until 2041, with prices paid by ... Nalcor can't sell extra power from Churchill Falls, Quebec court ...
$6.5M legal bill for failed Churchill Falls contract challenge - CBC.ca
www.cbc.ca/.../newfoundland.../nalcor-hydro-quebec-churchill-falls-court-challenge-1.3...
Feb 2, 2017 - The province of Newfoundland and Labrador has spent more than $6.5 million on its unsuccessful challenge of the Churchill Falls power contract. ... the Court of Appeal of Quebec also ruled N.L. also has to pay Hydro ...

The point is, privatized or not, it takes savvy negotiators to get the best deal.

Perhaps it depends on user usage and combined utility providers- it might be worth looking more into how these numbers were determined.

Excellent link, and I must admit I was fixated on large users, which ironically, have very competitive rates in Toronto compared to most other cities. Residential rates are very high. That makes some cases, but debases the one of "industry in Toronto being driven away by high electricity costs". It certainly doesn't jibe with the Neo message in a number of respects. Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and that is worthy of a lot more reference.

 

[jje1000]

As long as Ontario isn't locked into a long-term contract that may prove beneficial in the short-term, not so in the long-term. One has to look no further than the Churchill Falls project to realize that, albeit Newfoundland was literally 'asleep at the switch' on it:

The point is, privatized or not, it takes savvy negotiators to get the best deal.

Definitely so- but given the way that the Liberals have seemingly gotten us into this issue (according to the Redditor) by signing long term deals for our excess green energy, then realizing that we need extra energy to tide us over while our nuclear plants are down doesn't give me much hope.

As Quebec deals to benefit itself, I would imagine that any potential deal will depend on how pressured our government is feeling in regards to this potential shortfall.

Excellent link, and I must admit I was fixated on large users, which ironically, have very competitive rates in Toronto compared to most other cities. Residential rates are very high. That makes some cases, but debases the one of "industry in Toronto being driven away by high electricity costs". It certainly doesn't jibe with the Neo message in a number of respects. Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and that is worthy of a lot more reference.

On the larger Ontario picture, AMPCO notes that electricity rates in Ontario for large users are quite high- perhaps the lower Toronto industrial rates might be the result of city hall-directed initiatives/rebates to retain industry in the city?

It might be worth looking into what Toronto Hydro charges versus the rest of the province.

http://www.ampco.org/index.cfm?pagePath=Analysis/Benchmarking&id=36556
http://www.torontohydro.com/sites/electricsystem/business/rates/Pages/busrates.aspx

 

[jje1000]

An opinion piece in the National Post which brings up two points (public ownership and debt) regarding Hydro One's recent acquisition of Avista:

Based on that press release, and the requirement to get shareholder approval, we must assume Thibeault gave his blessings to the acquisition and dilution of the province’s holdings, which will decline from 49 per cent to 44 per cent. He presumably also blessed Hydro One’s borrowing program, which will add US$2.6 billion ($3.7 billion) in new debt, not including another $1.4 billion via a convertible debenture paying 12 per cent per annum in interest prior to its conversion to common shares.

Thibeault and Wynne believe it’s wrong for the province to borrow $4 billion, as the NDP suggested, to reacquire Hydro One shares, but OK for Hydro One to borrow $5.1 billion while diluting the province’s interest in it. The privatization of Hydro One and dilution of the province’s shareholding keep its debt off of the province’s balance sheet.

— The acquisition of Avista will result in Hydro One’s debt (short and long term) increasing by 46 per cent, or $5.1 billion, to reach in excess of $16 billion. Should interest rates increase Hydro One will submit an application to the Ontario Energy Board (OEB) for a rate increase, an accepted OEB process.

— Hydro One’s 2017 first-quarter report notes it currently has five rate applications awaiting approval by the OEB and plans to file another nine rate applications over the next four years.

http://business.financialpost.com/o...ians/wcm/3751977d-90c7-4489-8437-78bea9a731f0

 

[Jasmine18]

People hate on Liberals and Wynee for good reasons.

They wasted a billion dollars to save a few seats during an election and pretty laughing their asses off we still voted for them.

I hope they are kicked out of office but I am sure people will vote for ideology over ethics.

 

[Jasmine18]

Moving forward is desirable - but it cannot be done with conservatives. While I generally support the NDP, the Liberals are implementing traditionally left-wing policies with which I entirely agree and which they could have simply promised to implement in the hope of being reelected, and so I am inclined to support them in the next election despite their mistakes. Policy is all I care about; the hostility towards Wynne has become some of kind irrational bandwagon many people mindlessly hop onto. Many who support the Conservatives are concerned with the debt and government spending; but with the deficit very low or eliminated and spending among the lowest per capita in the country - and considering the Conservatives rather poor track record in this particular area - their solutions would be the opposite of what we need.

And what we need, in my opinion, is to increase taxes to invest in health care, including long-term care (where Ontario's offer is considerably inferior to that of Québec). Our problem is insufficient revenue.

Leading the province the highest debt levels than that of any Province or State leading to increased billions of yearly debt interest payments

then Saying that is a hallmark of good governance and we actually need for taxes.

Is why I think people like you are rather tone deaf to how people actually feel in this province.

 

[Bayer]

Leading the province the highest debt levels than that of any Province or State leading to increased billions of yearly debt interest payments

then Saying that is a hallmark of good governance and we actually need for taxes.

Is why I think people like you are rather tone deaf to how people actually feel in this province.

You are correct in that I am not interested in feelings at all; I am interested in facts.

Our debt level is indeed very high. But Ontario is not a province that spends excessively, quite the contrary. According to RBC, only Alberta will have lower revenues relative to GDP in 2017-2018, and Ontario will have the lowest program spending relative to GDP of all the provinces for that fiscal year. And of all the provinces, only BC has lower income tax levels. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that our revenue has been insufficient.

I am not loyal to the Liberals, but as long as the Conservatives intend to reduce spending mindlessly as they did before, I am not interested because that is not what we need.

 

[ttk77]

The debt it the problem. Servicing that high a debt is severely hindering our ability to properly fund our operating and capital budgets without going further into debt. Now that we seem to be back in the black, we need to start addressing this.

 

[Bayer]

The debt it the problem. Servicing that high a debt is severely hindering our ability to properly fund our operating and capital budgets without going further into debt. Now that we seem to be back in the black, we need to start addressing this.

Indeed, and the best way to do it is by increasing taxes - while knowing that three provinces have a debt-to-GDP ratio that is higher than Ontario's and there is no reason to panic.

 

[Jasmine18]

Indeed, and the best way to do it is by increasing taxes - while knowing that three provinces have a debt-to-GDP ratio that is higher than Ontario's and there is no reason to panic.

You ignore the facts that you don't like and use on fact to supersede others.. so you do indeed deal in feelings, not facts.

With highest hydro, tuition and insurance rates and already very high taxes...

And a governing party that has a tendency to waste billions in the past on sheer incompetence or perhaps corruption.

Hell no to higher taxes...

 

[Bayer]

You ignore the facts that you don't like and use on fact to supersede others.. so you do indeed deal in feelings, not facts.

With highest hydro, tuition and insurance rates and already very high taxes...

And a governing party that has a tendency to waste billions in the past on sheer incompetence or perhaps corruption.

Hell no to higher taxes...

Whether or not you or I want to pay higher taxes is irrelevant; saying that taxes are "very high" in Ontario is patently false. Additionally, the government has done a lot to subsidize university tuition in the past couple of years, and electricity rates are the highest in Canada but are far higher in such cities as Boston, Detroit and NYC. You are not interested in reality, and are motivated strictly by your dislike of the current government.

 

[jje1000]

Poor Ontario families getting poorer: new report
New research says bottom half of families in Ontario are earning less, while richer families earn more

The poorest families in Ontario are earning less than they were in 2000, while during the same period richer families have watched their income grow, according to a new economic report.

The analysis by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA) describes an increasingly "polarized" Ontario labour market that is shifting away from stable manufacturing jobs to more precarious service sector work and rewarding higher-earning families while punishing poorer ones.

The top half of Ontario families in terms of income now takes home 81 per cent of all earnings, up from 78 per cent in 2000.

"It's a totally different story for families in the bottom half," Block said.

The poorest half of Ontario families' share of earnings shrunk from 22 per cent in 2000 to 19 per cent in 2015.

Ontario's labour picture is looking worse than the rest of the country in terms of income inequality. At the national level, the report says average earnings grew consistently for 90 per cent of families between 2000 and 2015, due in part to the natural resource boom enjoyed in other provinces.

The report says the income inequality is being caused by a "seismic shift" taking place in Ontario's labour market with the decline of stable, working-class jobs in the manufacturing sector.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/income-inequality-report-ccpa-1.4246874

 

[Jasmine18]

Whether or not you or I want to pay higher taxes is irrelevant; saying that taxes are "very high" in Ontario is patently false. Additionally, the government has done a lot to subsidize university tuition in the past couple of years, and electricity rates are the highest in Canada but are far higher in such cities as Boston, Detroit and NYC. You are not interested in reality, and are motivated strictly by your dislike of the current government.

Yes it is, because the government represents the people and for their interests, so yes I do have a say whether taxes should be higher or lower...

Income taxes are not the only form of Govt Taxation and I dont care if taxes in the East Coast or Quebec or Manitoba are higher, cost of living is much greater here and I cant go on EI as easily and many other things...

Life is based on cash flow and cost of living in this province is too high based on the policies of this government...such as hydro and car insurance and many other things.

The Government asking for more taxes after squandering billions on many poor ill thought investments and corruption scandals and racking up the debt to over 300 billion...

is simply wrong and imo is rather tone deaf to the realities of the struggles peoples of this province fast.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes it is, because the government represents the people and for their interests, so yes I do have a say whether taxes should be higher or lower...
Income taxes are not the only form of Govt Taxation and I dont care if taxes in the East Coast or Quebec or Manitoba are higher, cost of living is much greater here and I cant go on EI as easily and many other things...
Life is based on cash flow and cost of living in this province is too high based on the policies of this government...such as hydro and car insurance and many other things.
The Government asking for more taxes after squandering billions on many poor ill thought investments and corruption scandals and racking up the debt to over 300 billion...is simply wrong and imo is rather tone deaf to the realities of the struggles peoples of this province fast.

If the priority is paying down the debt, then why has successive governments - Liberal or PC - prioritized income and corporate tax cuts (independent of deficit spending) over debt payment? Perhaps when push comes to shove, the people are more interested in what benefits them immediately than in the long run. In that instance, pushing out the debt is a red herring argument.

AoD

 

[lead82]

There is a doctrine that says lower taxes bring more economic activity and grows the economy so that government will get more revenue to pay for services and service the debt. This of course has been disproven but I think the issue in Ontario is the realization that we can't keep taxing people for more revenue. We need to first manage the revenue we raise now a lot better.

The problem is politics. Politics and democracy prevent the efficienct use of funds since elections and vote buying take priority over sound investment and leadership. Voters don't reward politicians who make sound decisions. They teward those that promise them rainbows and unicorns. The result is wasted money and boondoggles like Scarborough subway 1 stop for $5B or gas power plants or privatized Hydro. The list goes on. It's a problem of culture in government and institutions.

Ontario needs more pragmatic leadership and more focused on keeping sound long term investments and less on vanity projects.

Doing simple things like simplifying bureaucracy and removing wasteful spending would help. For example, why does no major party want to abolish the ridiculous 4 major school board admins in favour of 1? Why do we continue to have very high insurance rates when no other province does? (hint it has to do with fraud and ridiculous claim benefits mandatory) without much checks and balances. Why do we continue to subsidize sprawl and then complain about how expensive it is to build infrastructure?

All these decisions have huge cost implications and are done for political reasons. We will never have efficient spending as that is impossible within our system.

The Liberals have had their time in power. They have done many good things and many bad things. In 2018 I want to hear new and fresh ideas on how to make Ontario better for people and improve quality of life.

 

[Northern Light]

Yes it is, because the government represents the people and for their interests, so yes I do have a say whether taxes should be higher or lower...

Income taxes are not the only form of Govt Taxation and I dont care if taxes in the East Coast or Quebec or Manitoba are higher, cost of living is much greater here and I cant go on EI as easily and many other things...

Life is based on cash flow and cost of living in this province is too high based on the policies of this government...such as hydro and car insurance and many other things.

The Government asking for more taxes after squandering billions on many poor ill thought investments and corruption scandals and racking up the debt to over 300 billion...

is simply wrong and imo is rather tone deaf to the realities of the struggles peoples of this province fast.

Again, as been said by others.

You have a right to your preferences, some of which I may even share, though I think for better reasons than you articulate..................... what you are not entitled to, is your own facts.

Ontario's income tax is lower than the vast majority of Canadian provinces.

Its sales tax is lower than 5 provinces.....(since there are 10, that would make us in the lower 1/2)

Our corporate tax is competitive and below most jurisdictions. (Alberta's is higher)

Now are you reasonable in complaints that there has been some corruption (and/or what appears to be, and was, at the very least, poor decision making) sure. Gas plant scandal topping the list, but I could make it much longer.

Are you are reasonable in suggesting that many Ontarians, particularly those w/low-incomes are feeling the pinch? Sure. Absolutely.

Is government policy a partial factor? Again, ding ding, you get the prize.

Though it should be said that rocketing housing prices, and rents have relatively little to do w/recent, provincial policies; and casting blame differently would be unfair.

*****

Is there room to drop some ill-conceived spending? Yes

Is there room to reduce some un-needed hassle for the 'average' Ontario in relating to gov't? Sure.

Not sure when this wasn't the case mind you; the e-health scandal started in the Harris years, and the Liberals managed to do very little to improve matters.

That is not an NDP endorsement btw; just a factual observation.

The kind you would do well to stick to; instead of espousing blind hatred of one party, without the slightest notion or evidence that any other party would do any better.

Hope, or wishful thinking is not a fact, nor evidence.

While we're at it............perhaps you would care to enumerate the policy changes you would like to see, with indications as to how those might happen, and evidence that any party supports your ideas.

Absent that.......your contributions are of little value.

(apologies to others for my immoderation in my rant)