VIA Rail

[Northern Light]

The "last-mile problem" isn't just a Canadian problem. I've argued with many people who are convinced that driving A to B would still be the best option, even with a train departing every 15 minutes for their destination. Others simply drive to suburb metro/underground stations, and then change to public transport, no matter the fact they live beside a rail station with at least a train departing every 30 minutes from 5 AM to 10 PM.

If anything, city officials should encourage their people to simply leave their cars at home, not VIA. After all, that choice lies more in the municipal government's ability to provide their citizens with alternatives both regarding transit and, most importantly, urban development. I don't know if Canada has the same stupid law regarding zoning and parking the USA has, but elsewhere in the world municipalities have realized that the only way to get people out of their cars and cars out of the roads is to eliminate free parking (especially in the city centers) and introducing congestion pricing. As I've said, this is something VIA cannot control.

We do indeed have stupid zoning laws; in respect of parking.

Though, by and large they are not as stupid as those in many U.S. locales.

Keep in mind, in both the U.S. and Canada, that these rules are local and vary widely from one place to the next.

As such, any comparison is a generalization.

That said, there is movement on this in Canada.

Edmonton has eliminated parking minimums in zoning.

Vancouver has approved studying the same.

So we're getting there, slowly.

Commercial and on-street parking are rarely free in the downtowns of Canadian Cities of any size; though on-street parking in non-retail areas is often free outside the downtown areas.

 

[kEiThZ]

In travel time conversations, we're missing the frequency side of the speed equation. Having the potential to add enough capacity that 99% of the time one can just show up and get on the next train is significant, as is having the next train being within an hour.

I addressed that in my post when I discussed the flexibility of driving. And @Urban Sky has addressed this before too. Frequency improves flexibility and this appears to have been at least somewhat foundational to the thinking behind HFR.

That flexibility doesn't exist for air travel for all except power users (and since the flexibility doesnt, the frequency of air travel doesnt matter in the same way).

Except that it does. Just look at all the schedules of all the airlines. They all offer hourly or better departures from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Air Canada even brands such flights differently. Previously Rapidair and now Express Service.

TBH HFR isn't going to be capturing very many families of four traveling for a friends, family or leisure trip.

I beg to differ. And we've discussed this before. It's counter-intuitive but increased frequency should substantially boost capacity while actually reducing unit costs, which should in turn allow VIA to offer more competitive fares. And this is the only way they'll be able to get drivers to switch.

I group the "last mile" of everything as anything that makes the journey longer than the stated time. Congestion, accidents, pee breaks, etc are all ""last mile" issues with driving.

Making up your own definition doesn't make it true. "Last mile" came from the telecom industry and referred to the difficulty of connecting a premises to a junction on the network. It has a specific meaning in logistics and transportation planning today.

What you're referring to is variability where travel times for a given route follow some kind of statistical distribution once you incorporate all the variables that can impact a driving trip. But you don't need to be a statistician to get an idea of how competitive driving is with rail travel. VIA's meager modal share says it all. Either most people don't think there's time savings. Or they don't consider the time savings enough to justify paying what VIA wants.

 

[kEiThZ]

We do indeed have stupid zoning laws; in respect of parking.

This whole parking discussion is sort of irrelevant.

1) VIA doesn't control parking at many major stations.

2) Most of VIA's major stations are co-located with major transit nodes.

3) VIA's suburban stations are always co-located with transit stations which may or may not have parking dedicated to it.

But all this is sort of relevant in the end because an intercity rail operator isn't responsible for your last mile transportation. The only relevancy here is in determining how fast VIA needs to be to compete with door-to-door trips. I'd argue 3.5 hrs for Toronto-Ottawa, 1.5 hr for Ottawa-Montreal and 4 hrs for Toronto-Montreal. HFR will be closer on some of those than the rest.

 

[kEiThZ]

I actually find @Northern Light quite thoughtful. Dunno what triggered him today. Didn't think my post was particularly pointed at him. Just thought the whole parking issue was kind of irrelevant. Especially to VIA which doesn't really control much parking at most urban and suburban stations. Of the big three metros, Ottawa might be the exception.

 

[micheal_can]

I actually find @Northern Light quite thoughtful. Dunno what triggered him today. Didn't think my post was particularly pointed at him. Just thought the whole parking issue was kind of irrelevant. Especially to VIA which doesn't really control much parking at most urban and suburban stations. Of the big three metros, Ottawa might be the exception.

Does Air Canada control the parking at Pearson? This is why it is relevant to discuss parking.

 

[kEiThZ]

Does Air Canada control the parking at Pearson? This is why it is relevant to discuss parking.

No. And yes. Being an anchor airline at an airport is a lot like being an anchor tenant at the mall. You get to dictate quite a bit. You can be damn sure the GTAA consults with Air Canada on parking rates and damn near everything else that impacts AC's business at Pearson. And if the airport authority proves disagreeable? Well just grow the other hub instead.

You'll notice that the GTAA didn't start discussing the transit hub and HSR until Pearson got really busy. All of a sudden, slots on London and Kitchener are wasteful and they need more passengers to arrive by rail instead of puddle jumpers or cars. Think that's a coincidence?

 

[micheal_can]

No. And yes. Being an anchor airline at an airport is a lot like being an anchor tenant at the mall. You get to dictate quite a bit. You can be damn sure the GTAA consults with Air Canada on parking rates and damn near everything else that impacts AC's business at Pearson. And if the airport authority proves disagreeable? Well just grow the other hub instead.

You'll notice that the GTAA didn't start discussing the transit hub and HSR until Pearson got really busy. All of a sudden, slots on London and Kitchener are wasteful and they need more passengers to arrive by rail instead of puddle jumpers or cars. Think that's a coincidence?

So, you think stations that have Via at them do not talk to Via about potential changes?

 

[kEiThZ]

So, you think stations that have Via at them do not talk to Via about potential changes?

About parking? I doubt it. Do you think GO or Exo really cares about parking requirements for VIA? How many reserved spots for VIA customers do you see at their stations?

There's a massive size difference to keep in mind. VIA moves ~ 5 million pax a year. GO moves ~70 million. They most certainly won't be going out of their way to accommodate VIA.

Like I said above, the only time I've seen VIA stations have dedicated parking is when VIA owned the station. And those aren't in the major metros or suburbs. Ottawa is the only exception here and that's because it is not in downtown Ottawa.

 

[micheal_can]

About parking? I doubt it. Do you think GO or Exo really cares about parking requirements for VIA? How many reserved spots for VIA customers do you see at their stations?

There's a massive size difference to keep in mind. VIA moves ~ 5 million pax a year. GO moves ~70 million. They most certainly won't be going out of their way to accommodate VIA.

Like I said above, the only time I've seen VIA stations have dedicated parking is when VIA owned the station. And those aren't in the major metros or suburbs. Ottawa is the only exception here and that's because it is not in downtown Ottawa.

Flip it around the other way... Do you think that Via does not get consulted when a GO/EXO/TTC, etc station is being modified?

 

[kEiThZ]

Flip it around the other way... Do you think that Via does not get consulted when a GO/EXO/TTC, etc station is being modified?

Modified? Depends on what the modification is....

Do you think if GO is putting in a new washroom at Guildwood or Oshawa, they are going to seek VIA's input?

Also, we were specifically discussing "last mile" travel and parking was supposed to be relevant in that regard. So where exactly is this line of discussion going?

Like I said earlier, last mile service is almost never the purview of an intercity rail operator. And not just in Canada.... VIA isn't going out of their way to get you from the station to your final destination. They'll do some integration where they can. But this is mostly your problem. Not all that different than say how much Air Canada cares for what happens after you deplane at Pearson or Dorval.

 

[Urban Sky]

I actually find @Northern Light quite thoughtful. Dunno what triggered him today. Didn't think my post was particularly pointed at him. Just thought the whole parking issue was kind of irrelevant. Especially to VIA which doesn't really control much parking at most urban and suburban stations. Of the big three metros, Ottawa might be the exception.

I wish I could say that this discussion should be outsourced into the “Transport Policy in Canada” thread (as nobody has suggested so far to give passenger railroads control or even ownership over the parking facilities at their stations), but I do agree that this discussion is indeed “mostly irrelevant” to this thread (even though nobody faults @Northern Light for providing an answer to a question which someone else had asked)...

 

[kEiThZ]

I wish I could say that this discussion should be outsourced into the “Transport Policy in Canada” thread

Parking isn't even a topic regulated nationally elsewhere (to my knowledge at least). Why should Canada be held to this weird standard where it is?

It was a tangent brought up by a foreign poster who for some reason thinks we mostly drive to VIA stations. But that's only really true in the smaller cities and some suburban stations. Not really true at Union or Gare Centrale. Parking is even more obscure, because that's a specific subset of those driving to a station. Most aren't interested in paying exorbitant rates to park long term at the station if their trip is more than a few days. Every VIA train I've gotten off always a long line of cabs waiting outside only too happy to drive me somewhere, if I'm too lazy to use public transit or there's nobody to pick me up.

 

[micheal_can]

Modified? Depends on what the modification is....

Do you think if GO is putting in a new washroom at Guildwood or Oshawa, they are going to seek VIA's input?

Also, we were specifically discussing "last mile" travel and parking was supposed to be relevant in that regard. So where exactly is this line of discussion going?

Like I said earlier, last mile service is almost never the purview of an intercity rail operator. And not just in Canada.... VIA isn't going out of their way to get you from the station to your final destination. They'll do some integration where they can. But this is mostly your problem. Not all that different than say how much Air Canada cares for what happens after you deplane at Pearson or Dorval.

Let's say GO was going to build a parking garage there. Let's say that means that part of the parking lot would be shut down. Are you assuming that Via would not be notified?

Where does most discussion on here go? Nowhere.

Parking isn't even a topic regulated nationally elsewhere (to my knowledge at least). Why should Canada be held to this weird standard where it is?

It was a tangent brought up by a foreign poster who for some reason thinks we mostly drive to VIA stations. But that's only really true in the smaller cities and some suburban stations. Not really true at Union or Gare Centrale. Parking is even more obscure, because that's a specific subset of those driving to a station. Most aren't interested in paying exorbitant rates to park long term at the station if their trip is more than a few days. Every VIA train I've gotten off always a long line of cabs waiting outside only too happy to drive me somewhere, if I'm too lazy to use public transit or there's nobody to pick me up.

People tend to park more at airports than at train stations, but I'll bet that has more to do with the type of travel and less to do with rates. A few years ago, parking at Pearson was about $100 a week. Taking transit is not nearly a easy, and only certain cabs can go to the airport. So, I'd argue that parking is still an issue for using Via.

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's say GO was going to build a parking garage there. Let's say that means that part of the parking lot would be shut down. Are you assuming that Via would not be notified?

There's a lot of hypotheticals. You can email GO to find out. But I would bet money that GO doesn't consult VIA at all on parking development. Every single one of their massive parking garages has been built because of increased GO traffic. Nothing at all to do with VIA. Heck, GO specifically prohibits parking beyond 2 days at their stations. And that includes the ones with VIA service. So no, they don't really care about what VIA thinks about parking.

People tend to park more at airports than at train stations, but I'll bet that has more to do with the type of travel and less to do with rates.

How much do you think it costs to park near Union or Gare Centrale for a week?

And it does have to do with travel. It's easier to get to most VIA stations with transit, cabs, etc. Remember, city centre convenience is the selling point.

 

[kEiThZ]

Not relevant to the thread but just to answer this, parking is regulated at the national level in Japan.

https://www.reinventingparking.org/2014/06/japans-proof-of-parking-rule-has.html

But Japan is kind of unique and famous for their national zoning policy. Not many places are like that.