VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

I actually find @Northern Light quite thoughtful. Dunno what triggered him today. Didn't think my post was particularly pointed at him. Just thought the whole parking issue was kind of irrelevant. Especially to VIA which doesn't really control much parking at most urban and suburban stations. Of the big three metros, Ottawa might be the exception.

I wish I could say that this discussion should be outsourced into the “Transport Policy in Canada” thread (as nobody has suggested so far to give passenger railroads control or even ownership over the parking facilities at their stations), but I do agree that this discussion is indeed “mostly irrelevant” to this thread (even though nobody faults @Northern Light for providing an answer to a question which someone else had asked)...

 

[kEiThZ]

I wish I could say that this discussion should be outsourced into the “Transport Policy in Canada” thread

Parking isn't even a topic regulated nationally elsewhere (to my knowledge at least). Why should Canada be held to this weird standard where it is?

It was a tangent brought up by a foreign poster who for some reason thinks we mostly drive to VIA stations. But that's only really true in the smaller cities and some suburban stations. Not really true at Union or Gare Centrale. Parking is even more obscure, because that's a specific subset of those driving to a station. Most aren't interested in paying exorbitant rates to park long term at the station if their trip is more than a few days. Every VIA train I've gotten off always a long line of cabs waiting outside only too happy to drive me somewhere, if I'm too lazy to use public transit or there's nobody to pick me up.

 

[micheal_can]

Modified? Depends on what the modification is....

Do you think if GO is putting in a new washroom at Guildwood or Oshawa, they are going to seek VIA's input?

Also, we were specifically discussing "last mile" travel and parking was supposed to be relevant in that regard. So where exactly is this line of discussion going?

Like I said earlier, last mile service is almost never the purview of an intercity rail operator. And not just in Canada.... VIA isn't going out of their way to get you from the station to your final destination. They'll do some integration where they can. But this is mostly your problem. Not all that different than say how much Air Canada cares for what happens after you deplane at Pearson or Dorval.

Let's say GO was going to build a parking garage there. Let's say that means that part of the parking lot would be shut down. Are you assuming that Via would not be notified?

Where does most discussion on here go? Nowhere.

Parking isn't even a topic regulated nationally elsewhere (to my knowledge at least). Why should Canada be held to this weird standard where it is?

It was a tangent brought up by a foreign poster who for some reason thinks we mostly drive to VIA stations. But that's only really true in the smaller cities and some suburban stations. Not really true at Union or Gare Centrale. Parking is even more obscure, because that's a specific subset of those driving to a station. Most aren't interested in paying exorbitant rates to park long term at the station if their trip is more than a few days. Every VIA train I've gotten off always a long line of cabs waiting outside only too happy to drive me somewhere, if I'm too lazy to use public transit or there's nobody to pick me up.

People tend to park more at airports than at train stations, but I'll bet that has more to do with the type of travel and less to do with rates. A few years ago, parking at Pearson was about $100 a week. Taking transit is not nearly a easy, and only certain cabs can go to the airport. So, I'd argue that parking is still an issue for using Via.

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's say GO was going to build a parking garage there. Let's say that means that part of the parking lot would be shut down. Are you assuming that Via would not be notified?

There's a lot of hypotheticals. You can email GO to find out. But I would bet money that GO doesn't consult VIA at all on parking development. Every single one of their massive parking garages has been built because of increased GO traffic. Nothing at all to do with VIA. Heck, GO specifically prohibits parking beyond 2 days at their stations. And that includes the ones with VIA service. So no, they don't really care about what VIA thinks about parking.

People tend to park more at airports than at train stations, but I'll bet that has more to do with the type of travel and less to do with rates.

How much do you think it costs to park near Union or Gare Centrale for a week?

And it does have to do with travel. It's easier to get to most VIA stations with transit, cabs, etc. Remember, city centre convenience is the selling point.

 

[kEiThZ]

Not relevant to the thread but just to answer this, parking is regulated at the national level in Japan.

https://www.reinventingparking.org/2014/06/japans-proof-of-parking-rule-has.html

But Japan is kind of unique and famous for their national zoning policy. Not many places are like that.

 

[Urban Sky]

Not relevant to the thread but just to answer this, parking is regulated at the national level in Japan.

https://www.reinventingparking.org/2014/06/japans-proof-of-parking-rule-has.html

France and a few other countries as well. It's not only Japan.

ECF ranks France on top with most sustainable parking policy in Europe | ECF

"France has the best off-street parking regulations in place when it comes to promoting sustainable mobility in Europe" found a report published by the European Cyclists’ Federation. Link to the 'Making Buildings fit for Sustainable Mobility' Report Link to the Executive Summary France belongs...

ecf.com

Okay, now that we’ve finally crossed the border to transportation policy discussions, I would like to kindly ask for all further discussions of who sets or should set parking prices around rail stations or elsewhere to be moved to the “Transportation Policy in Canada” thread.

Thank you for your consideration!

 

[kEiThZ]

Moved my response over to the other thread.

But again, parking really isn't something all that relevant to VIA. And it's even less relevant to the HFR proposal meant to connect the major metros.

 

[crs1026]

^Brantford is a good case study for parking as it relates to VIA specifically. It has a big lot, which off and on has been metered over the years. When the meters aren’t in operation, it has been permissible to park and ride. Attracts many daytrippers, some regular commuters but more just people going somewhere for the day.

Woodstock has a smaller lot, which is also filled to capacity most days.

Generally for the multi-day trip, VIA tolerates overnight parking at its stations, but it’s less secure and unclear as to whether it’s condoned. There is seldom a policy for that location (let alone Corridor wide) posted, and if one asks the response may vary by agent.... by then it’s a little late anyways, should have that worked out and dependable at the time of booking.

I have taken the family on vacation by rail, renting a car at the other end, VIA’s proximity to rental car providers could be improved.

Some of VIA’s HFR quotes have spoken to the intent to increase connectivity at its stations, which partly implies bus regional connections But VIA would be wise to recognize that for other than central city travellers, the car ain’t going away any time soon.

For the big four cities (and possibly London/Kitchener), the downtown stations may have quite different dynamics. But if I were VIA, I’d be beefing up parking, car rental and bus connections at Dorval, Ste-Foy/Lorette, Fallowfield, and such. And building or contracting long term parking lots as one sees around airports.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Generally VIA tolerates overnight parking at its stations, but it’s less secure and unclear as to whether it’s condoned. There is seldom a policy for that location (let alone Corridor wide) posted, and if one asks the response may vary by agent.... by then it’s a little late anyways, should have that worket at the time of booking.

There's more consistency at major stations in Eastern Ontario at least. Indigo manages the lots at the VIA stations. And it ain't cheap. Ottawa is $18/day. Fallowfield is $15/day. Kingston is $12/day. They all have monthly charges you can reach. So leaving your car overnight isn't really disallowed.

I have taken the family on vacation by rail, renting a car at the other end, VIA’s proximity to rental car providers could be improved.

Auto rental is an issue. But they have to have traffic before auto rental agencies agree to set up at the station. And most stations aren't anywhere close to the level of demand required. May change at some locations post-HFR. And hopefully they do account for that.

Some of VIA’s HFR quotes have spoken to the intent to increase connectivity at its stations, which partly implies bus regional connections But VIA would be wise to recognize that for other than central city travellers, the car ain’t going away any time soon.

There's different needs at different locations. Not much can be done at Union or Gare Centrale. Not much is needed to be honest. On the other hand, Ottawa Central has both the space and the demand that the really should build a bus terminal and parking structure. Lakeshore stations would see a lot more daytrip or overnight demand with the Kingston hub and may need larger lots or parking structures. Most could stand to be better integrated with local transit though. And that should be priority.

For the big four cities, the downtown stations may have quite different dynamics. But if I were VIA, I’d be beefing up parking, car rental and bus connections at Dorval, Ste-Foy/Lorette, Fallowfield, and such. And building or contracting long term parking lots as one sees around airports.

I agree that suburban stations like Eglinton, Fallowfield, Dorval, etc are prime candidates for parking structures and car rental agencies. But does VIA even own the stations and lots at all these locations? And would they be allowed to build lots and parking structures there?

 

[crs1026]

I agree that suburban stations like Eglinton, Fallowfield, Dorval, etc are prime candidates for parking structures and car rental agencies. But does VIA even own the stations and lots at all these locations? And would they be allowed to build lots and parking structures there?

In Ontario, you can build a parking garage anywhere the Minister wants, even on wetlands.

OK, I’m being a touch sarcastic, but.....I hope that at least for HFR, and for the important feeder stations to HFR, VIA has a land development strategy. Brightline is a case study. And, if done better, GO’s station development strategy is also a model. VIa need not own the lands around its stations, or act as developer, but it should be looking at how the station can be an anchor for development which both enhances the travel experience and creates a local space with value beyond catching a train.

I wonder whether Dorval for instance can be made into a virtual travel center, by simply making the train station a shuttle stop assuring transfer to long term parking, rental cars, etc.

I wonder too what ViA can do to entice rental car agencies.... such as a multi year contract... look, business may be scarce just yet, but commit now and we will give you an advantage when HFr opens etc

Certainly when HFR opens, I would expect the potential demand to be there.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

PS: Even in the city centers, we should not limit our thinking to a single customer demographic. There will be plenty of travellers whose demographic is urban dweller, non-auto-owning, transit-reliant, trips are urban to urban, etc. But VIa can build a broader baser beyond that demographic.
Businesss travellers for instance may be headed for industrial parks in the burbs. Public transit may be too slow or infrequent. And many will not want to start or end their trips downtown.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

Before the pandemic the first train out of Union was around 6:30am. It's impossible to be able to take the subway to catch that train, and parking downtown is $30 for the whole day. If the train was express to Kingston how are people supposed to catch that train at 6:30am? It would be better if eastbound trains started at Aldershot, and Westbound trains started at Oshawa. That way you don't have to drive from Oshawa to Union to catch the 6:30am train.

It would also make sense if the Visa ticket included your TTC ride. This is done in Japan where if you ride the bullet train, the local train fare is included. Or your GO train ticket within one zone. For example get off at Oshawa and your ticket to Pickering is included.

That would help promote people to use transit to the last mile.

 

[nfitz]

Before the pandemic the first train out of Union was around 6:30am. It's impossible to be able to take the subway to catch that train, and parking downtown is $30 for the whole day. If the train was express to Kingston how are people supposed to catch that train at 6:30am?

Taxi, TTC, GO (buses arrive starting at 5 AM, and trains at 6:10 pre-covid).Also, how is it impossible - the first TTC subway train arrives at 5:54 AM - and personally I find the night bus service faster than the subway at that time.

Seems easier than catching a 6:30 AM flight - last time I tried that, it was too early for the UP express. And parking is even more expensive at the airport.

 

[sacred]

Wouldn't a Toronto-NYC rail line struggle a bit to compete with air travel? It couldn't really be all that direct with Lake Ontario in the way.

I think the approach Ontario should take is agreeing to improve transit to Niagara Falls with dedicated passenger infrastructure while New York agrees to improve transit from Buffalo-Albany and Albany-NY. Cuomo has expressed interest in improving rail service within his state. Even if it takes a long time, an agreement to actually improve the journey would go a long way in my mind.

 

[sacred]

End-point to end-point? Yes, of course. Probably Toronto to NYC through ridership would be a little higher if the Maple Leaf operated on a night schedule as, according to Google Flights, the first Air Canada plane lands in Newark at 10.15. Skipping to a night service would also potentially shave off some of the travel time, as some intermediate stations could be dispensed with, up to the point that the service could save the 2-hour border-checks in Niagara Falls with border preclearance done in Toronto (and no intermediate Canadian stops all the way to Buffalo). After all, the Empire Corridor is already well served, with 4 services already originating in Buffalo and 20 from Albany (in both cases, not including the Maple Leaf).

What would be needed to start an overnight train? It would make air-travel-free weekend trips a possibility...