Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[cplchanb]

Having just visited Barcelona and Lisbon, I have no idea why TTC/Metrolinx went with the faregates that they did. Why not something more substantial that works better and faster and is (from what I've seen) less prone to breaking.

well...the general assumption is that German products are of high quality. Despite the software glitches hasnt there also been faults due to people
trying to push the gates or charge them while its opening? If thats the case its the general ignorance of TTC riders thats the problem and that you cant buy anywhere

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Interesting problem I noticed with Presto: the Presto readers appear to activate contactless credit card payments from a ridiculously far distance. Standing on then 514 Cherry car with my iPhone more than a foot away from the Presto activated Apple Pay. Had I had my finger on the home button, it would have charged my credit card.

I didn't try to see what would happen if I held my regular credit card a similar distance away from the reader.

I don't think this is the first report of this issue. I do recall complaints from some (probably on UT) that the Presto readers would charge cards, even when the card was resting in a pocket.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Interesting problem I noticed with Presto: the Presto readers appear to activate contactless credit card payments from a ridiculously far distance. Standing on then 514 Cherry car with my iPhone more than a foot away from the Presto activated Apple Pay. Had I had my finger on the home button, it would have charged my credit card.

I didn't try to see what would happen if I held my regular credit card a similar distance away from the reader.

I don't think this is the first report of this issue. I do recall complaints from some (probably on UT) that the Presto readers would charge cards, even when the card was resting in a pocket.

As far as I know nothing actually happens unless a presto card has been tapped. There have been reports of poel, using apple pay and it being excepted but had no charges on the card they had on file with it. As regards to Preto cards in a wallet I have had that happen to me once when I bumped into the reader on a streetcar. Currently Preto readers are only formated to read and charge a Presto card eventually the TTC will have open payment available on it but it's still a few years down the road.

 

[crs1026]

Odd Presto calculations are a bit of old news, but here's one anyways. I found this one a bit of a brain teaser.

My trip began at Mimico GO, changed trains at Union, transferred at Unionville to a northbound GO Route 70, trip ended at Markham GO.

Coming home I caught a GO Route 54 bus back to Unionville. Not having a ride home from Mimico, I decided to take the Kitchener line to Etobicoke North and take TTC home from there.

Layover at Markham was 35 minutes - I was just going up to sign some legal papers, and it took next to no time.

On the way up, I tapped off at Union thinking I might catch a bus from there. As it happened I waited for the train, which meant a tap back on at Union. Presto seems to have interpreted that as a transfer. Coming home, I didn't tap off or on at Union, simply changed trains and tapped off at Etobicoke North.

Note the TTC tap-on to Route 45 at Kipling and Rexdale, which was logged as being at East Mall and Eglinton. That's 4.5km away as the crow flies (Is that a record? Maybe there should be a prize for the longest documented error in TTC Presto GPS reckoning).

The fare assessed for the trip up was $0.13 less than the GO Fare Calculator on the GO web site, and the fare for the trip back was $2.12 more than the fare calculator.

One possible improvement for the Presto web page would be to flag what Presto thinks is a "new trip" point, so one can try to understand Presto's thinking as it calculates the fare.

I'm not sure if this trip would be considered "typical" or just "odd", but it's the kind of trip that implementation of RER and more integrated transit pathways will attract. Any errors I committed (eg the inconsistent tap on/off at Union) were honest "unfamiliar user" errors - which the system needs to be robust enough to manage.

My point - If Presto is going to be the vehicle for more region-wide transit use, as opposed to just taking the streetcar downtown in the AM and coming home after work, there is some work to do. Some system assumptions and/or some transfer rules may have to change.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Odd Presto calculations are a bit of old news, but here's one anyways...My point - If Presto is going to be the vehicle for more region-wide transit use, as opposed to just taking the streetcar downtown in the AM and coming home after work, there is some work to do. Some system assumptions and/or some transfer rules may have to change.- Paul

A continuing massive oversight (and I've been making Metrolinx/Presto aware of this for almost five years) is the failure to 'book-through' on another carrier (Mi-Way in many cases) to fill the missing links GO themselves don't provide.

A classic one for me is coming in from west via the 25 or 29 bus to Square One. My intention is to get into the west-end of Toronto, and to not do it using the 21 bus down to Union (it takes forever, and is often caught up in traffic, and there's no drop-off between Mississauga and Union). So using initiative, I tap off at Square One, and take the Mi-Way bus down to Port Credit, getting the reduced co-fare on Mi-Way, but when I tap on at Port Credit to travel to (usually) New Toronto, I'm charged another fare. This flies completely in the face of the claims for Presto. Every time I phone in, they correct the charge, but that shouldn't have to happen.

Same happens if I connect through Milton from the Parkway (on the 401) to Milton GO station, or vice-versa. I cycle it usually, fifteen minutes at most, but if I used their local transit, it would recognize Presto, as does Mi-Way. Again, every time I've been double charged, I phone it in and get it corrected.

It shouldn't have to work that way. The touted solution?...Get this: "Buy a paper ticket with your Presto Card".

Progress, the Presto way.

 

[Admiral Beez]

imo they are really going overboard with the whole photo id thing. Do oyster, IC, or octopus card students have to have photo id to prove their age?
they should observe what the established networks are doing and implement what works instead of trying to reinvent things as usual.

We got the kids their student Presto cards last weekend. Seems like a lot of steps. First of all, there's no way to get a student Presto card online, so we had to visit the Shoppers Drug Mart at Queen and Carlaw. We left them at home, but brought the kids' passports and report cards, but no evidence of the kids' eligibility or existence was requested. Then there's all the steps next....
1) Want to register your Presto card, you must wait 24 hours
2) Want to complete your registration, you must tap it (or spend on it unnecessarily), but you must again wait 24 hours, but not more than 30 days

What is Presto doing, waiting until the end of each day to run its computers?

 

[rbt]

One possible improvement for the Presto web page would be to flag what Presto thinks is a "new trip" point, so one can try to understand Presto's thinking as it calculates the fare.

I very much wish Presto just showed trips (start point & time, end point & time, price) on the main page. They can show the detailed tap list, reloads, etc. if the user clicks on a trip.

Creating a expense report for a TTC/UPX/Flight/OC Transpo trip is very much a PITA right now because of the numerous extraneous taps shown and will only get worse when TTC requires tap during transfers and tap-out of stations.

 

[rbt]

Then there's all the steps next....
1) Want to register your Presto card, you must wait 24 hours
2) Want to complete your registration, you must tap it (or spend on it unnecessarily), but you must again wait 24 hours, but not more than 30 days

Yeah, PITA.

That said, the last time I got a card I did the website data entry on my phone and the taps at the TTC kiosk. Got the job done within a few minutes. Still more taps than I felt should be necessary.

What is Presto doing, waiting until the end of each day to run its computers?

Actually, they're waiting for the guy at the bus maintenance facilities (and a few subway stations) to run around to all the Presto machines to sync the on-device data with the central office. Not all Presto devices have live network connections.

IIRC, TTC has a WIFI fallback for their in vehicle cellular connection. So, Presto devices in their vehicles should sync at least once per trip for most routes.

 

[amnesiajune]

Yeah, PITA.

That said, the last time I got a card I did the website data entry on my phone and the taps at the TTC kiosk. Got the job done within a few minutes. Still more taps than I felt should be necessary.

The registration isn't necessary to use Presto cards. It's only necessary to get the online features, like automatic reloading and loss protection. You can still use it before you register it, and it's not unreasonable to assume that practically every Presto user who needs those tools (i.e. not visitors) is going to use transit at least once a month.

What is Presto doing, waiting until the end of each day to run its computers?

Transactions from the central computer aren't pushed out instantly. That would be fairly expensive and very unreliable. Instead, each card reader synchronizes with Presto's central system. A fixed reader or one on a cellular connection can have a set interval (for example, synchronize once every hour), while one on wi-fi can synchronize each time it goes into terminals and garages.

The 24 hour period is to guarantee that every single bus with Presto has been through a garage or terminal and has your transaction available. Card readers can process your transaction within five minutes if that's when the synchronization happens, but Presto can only guarantee that every reader will be able to process it after 24 hours.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I think the problem and the confusion with Presto comes mainly from the at most 24 hour sync time. Currently, the transaction decisions are made at the Presto reader right when the card is tapped. If Presto moved to a centralized system, where every tap on the reader goes directly to the central system to make decisions, then all readers will be synchronized immediately and so will deposits/reloads. I know that Presto has plans to eventually move to such a systems, but barriers include data connections for every single reader/bus and for the central system to be upgraded to allow for all the decisions and connections it will have to make.

This would make the Presto card to become just a number, rather than a computer that stores past transactions and balance. And with this, multiple cards with the same number, as well as digital cards on the phone, can be achieved. I just wish this will come sooner rather than later.

 

[steveintoronto]

while one on wi-fi can synchronize each time it goes into terminals and garages.

I'm seeing the term "wi-fi" misused a lot of late. It is for only a couple of specific bands and protocol, and it's nowhere near what GO is using for data transmission.

GO frequencies are here:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=4579

It's even possible that an inductive loop is being used to transpond what people refer to as "synchronization" (which actually had a specific definition before the computerezers completely mis-used it), much more secure and still fully encoded/encrypted if need be. Wi-Fi is this:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/Wi_Fi.html

 

[amnesiajune]

If Presto moved to a centralized system, where every tap on the reader goes directly to the central system to make decisions, then all readers will be synchronized immediately and so will deposits/reloads. I know that Presto has plans to eventually move to such a systems, but barriers include data connections for every single reader/bus and for the central system to be upgraded to allow for all the decisions and connections it will have to make.

No they don't. A system like that would have atrocious reliability. What they want to move to is a system where, if a transit provider chooses, their readers can synchronize on very short intervals. It'll never be instant, but it could get to the point where transactions would be available on all card readers within a few minutes.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm seeing the term "wi-fi" misused a lot of late. It is for only a couple of specific bands and protocol, and it's nowhere near what GO is using for data transmission.

GO frequencies are here:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=4579

It's even possible that an inductive loop is being used to transpond what people refer to as "synchronization" (which actually had a specific definition before the computerezers completely mis-used it), much more secure and still fully encoded/encrypted if need be. Wi-Fi is this:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/Wi_Fi.html

I'm not sure how go has there conditions set up but for the new TTC fare gates the wiring for them was installed by the same company that installed the WifI in the subway stations, they also ran the electrical connections for them as well, as every gate also has a heater in them apparently as well.

 

[Steve X]

I'm seeing the term "wi-fi" misused a lot of late. It is for only a couple of specific bands and protocol, and it's nowhere near what GO is using for data transmission.

GO frequencies are here:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=4579

It's even possible that an inductive loop is being used to transpond what people refer to as "synchronization" (which actually had a specific definition before the computerezers completely mis-used it), much more secure and still fully encoded/encrypted if need be. Wi-Fi is this:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/Wi_Fi.html

Are you sure you're not mixing up the communication console system radio frequencies with presto readers? Those look like long distance signals for communication between the drivers and headquarters. I don't think Presto syncs over them. They previously do claim when a GO or those 905 agencies buses head back to the garage, the presto device connects to the WiFi hotspot in the garage and the presto devices would sync over actual WiFi signal after acquiring an internet connection.

For the TTC, each bus would have it's own SIM and has a LTE connection to the cell towers. The presto device would know it's connected to the internet and thus could sync anywhere in the GTA (technically anywhere with cell signal).

I'm not sure how go has there conditions set up but for the new TTC fare gates the wiring for them was installed by the same company that installed the WifI in the subway stations, they also ran the electrical connections for them as well, as every gate also has a heater in them apparently as well.

I'm pretty sure they're just wired to the internet via BAI's network. The fare gates need an internet connection after all.

 

[steveintoronto]

For the TTC, each bus would have it's own SIM and has a LTE connection to the cell towers. The presto device would know it's connected to the internet and thus could sync anywhere in the GTA (technically anywhere with cell signal).

Which is not Wi-Fi. The systems the TTC use can be piggybacked on the same carrier as Wi-Fi, but they are very different protocols.

[...]
Interspersed throughout the rest of the station, approximately 30 metres from one another, are countless enclosures that house the equipment that beams wireless signals to any devices on the platform. While most of the equipment BAI uses to power its system is made up of off the shelf components, the enclosures themselves were designed by the company’s New York office. At present, there are some 400 of these units throughout the Toronto subway system, with more being installed every day.

These enclosures have since become an integral part of the TTC; they not only provide Wi-Fi and Wind Mobile coverage, they also power many other subsystems in the TTC.

For instance, in the stations where Presto turnstiles have already been installed, it’s those enclosures and the rest of BAI Canada’s network that handles the transmission of Presto card data.

“It’s a telecommunications network that you can layer on a variety of technologies on,” says Ranger.

Our conversation eventually leads to the fact there’s no Wi-Fi coverage yet in the city’s subway tunnels. “We have piloted some tunnel coverage on the Yonge line,” explains Ranger. The major issue, he tells me, is that the technological nature of Wi-Fi doesn’t make it the best fit for speeding trains.
[...]

And for radio data systems:

Sepura Wins Contract to Expand Toronto Transit Commission Tetra Network
2016-10-31
via Sepura

Cambridge, 31st October 2016 - PowerTrunk, part of the Sepura Group, has been awarded a contract to expand the TETRA network of the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC).

The contract builds on the existing TETRA infrastructure – deployed by Sepura in 2013 – which provides voice and data services both underground, for the metro, and above ground, for TTC’s bus and tram networks, as well as Wheel-Trans, a specialised accessible transit service.

The first phase of the expansion saw Sepura supply 1000 hand-portable and 600 mobile radios to boost communications across the network, including Wheel-Trans vehicles which are now fully operational on TETRA.

The next phase will see the deployment of a number of base stations and additional carriers to support TTC’s computer-aided dispatch (CAD) and automatic vehicle location (AVL) project, currently being rolled out across the metro network.

A further 1,000 hand-portable radios have been ordered to expand communication with metro staff and eventually replace some analogue data communications systems.

"We are delighted that TTC has, once again, placed its trust in Sepura,” said David Torres, PowerTrunk’s Senior Vice President Sales.

"This project will address TTC’s evolving operational requirements while making a vital contribution to the safe transportation of millions of passengers."

http://cutaactu.ca/en/news-media/la...pand-toronto-transit-commission-tetra-network

Whether the TTC has completely phased out their GRS analog Rogers system yet I don't know, but Rogers was shutting down the entire system for all users, but offered a number of extensions in some areas, Toronto being one.

Whatever, it's not "Wi-Fi". And TV isn't radio. You can piggyback them and vastly more on a single carrier, but the protocols, let alone the modulation modes, are completely different. And then there's digital radio and TV, all very different again, all can be carried on the same trunk. (Bandwidth permitting)

Edit to Add: Lots online if you Google, here's a forum discussing it, and problems, let alone technical details:
https://forums.radioreference.com/ontario/353530-ttc-tetra.html

And here's a technical overview of Tetra and the TTC:

[...]
The transit system has grown with the city, overloading the metro’s legacy analogue and MPT1327 systems. After looking at narrow banding options, TTC realised that the greater capacity of a trunked digital system would be needed to make the best use of the available frequencies. It looked at a range of digital LMR systems such as DMR, dPMR and P25, but found TETRA to be the best fit for its requirements. TTC wanted to use an established technology supported by open standards to avoid being locked into one supplier, and it needed full interoperability. The technology had to be one with a long service life and with a proven record in transit. Its engineering team wrote a specification based on TETRA, and seven companies responded. Sepura won the contract and supplied TTC with 34 base stations. [...]

http://www.tetratoday.com/news/ttc-a-new-canadian-tetra-operator

I repeat, that *ain't* "Wi-Fi". It can be wireless, it can be inductive, it can be hard-wired, it can be fibre. Then again, some think Morse Code is music.

The presto device would know it's connected to the internet and thus could sync anywhere in the GTA (technically anywhere with cell signal).

Not the internet, but a private trunk carrier. On 'syncing', I'd agree in this context. There is *real-time syncing*...an obvious oxymoron to anyone who predates computereze corrupting the use of established definitions. *Synchronized* by it's very nature means "real time". What many computer users do is *co-relate* their information from one storage medium to another, but computereze has corrupted many established terms, and uses them in a grossly incorrect way. Let's start with "drivers" and work downhill from there...