CDL.TO
Moderator
And with that, there goes any sympathy or benefit of the doubt that I may have had for Admiral Beez.
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Racism in Toronto Workforce
- Thread starter poppajojo
- Start date
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Glad to be of service.
I don't see what's off with that post though. I'm saying that due to militant Islam's undeclared war against the west (through the examples I provided, plus others), there is a good chance that Muslims of all persuasions will likely face more of what we define as hate speech or hatred, and thus may report it more to the various Human Rights Commissions. Where's the bad?
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
^Can we just leave that tangent hanging?
Back to the core discussion I think we are having trouble getting around the term racism. I think it is an unfortunate word because of how loaded it is. That is why I steered my points towards bias. Bias is directly target at an identifiable group, so frankly discussion of what these traits are be it biological or cultural is not productive. Also, bias attributes generalized characteristics to an identifiable group but says nothing about the nature of these characteristics. So if you are attributed generalized characteristics because you are identifiable with a group you will be penalized or rewarded accordingly. So my point is that bias does not just work against marginalized groups it works on all of us all the time and to profound effect.
Old habits die hard but generalized characteristics do change over time. People aren't stupid, they see things and observe the world around them and form opinions using their own reasoning. So attributed characteristics need to be continually re-enforced in order to survive. So on the one hand ultimately it is up to the individual to break pre-conceived notions and on the other hand it is difficult because you are always still associated with the group. For those who believe that there is nothing wrong and people sink and swim according to their own qualities, frankly I think this opinion is incredibly naive. Like wealth disparity attributed characteristics create positive and negative feedback loops that work naturally to separate people, validate themselves and create pools of success and marginalization. That is why today in this city in this country it is my belief that if you are a visible minority from a slightly marginalized group you have to be appreciably more talented than your peers in order to compete with them on a level playing field. I say level playing field because many fields are not level and therefore either easier to compete on or virtually impossible to.
Back to the core discussion I think we are having trouble getting around the term racism. I think it is an unfortunate word because of how loaded it is. That is why I steered my points towards bias. Bias is directly target at an identifiable group, so frankly discussion of what these traits are be it biological or cultural is not productive. Also, bias attributes generalized characteristics to an identifiable group but says nothing about the nature of these characteristics. So if you are attributed generalized characteristics because you are identifiable with a group you will be penalized or rewarded accordingly. So my point is that bias does not just work against marginalized groups it works on all of us all the time and to profound effect.
Old habits die hard but generalized characteristics do change over time. People aren't stupid, they see things and observe the world around them and form opinions using their own reasoning. So attributed characteristics need to be continually re-enforced in order to survive. So on the one hand ultimately it is up to the individual to break pre-conceived notions and on the other hand it is difficult because you are always still associated with the group. For those who believe that there is nothing wrong and people sink and swim according to their own qualities, frankly I think this opinion is incredibly naive. Like wealth disparity attributed characteristics create positive and negative feedback loops that work naturally to separate people, validate themselves and create pools of success and marginalization. That is why today in this city in this country it is my belief that if you are a visible minority from a slightly marginalized group you have to be appreciably more talented than your peers in order to compete with them on a level playing field. I say level playing field because many fields are not level and therefore either easier to compete on or virtually impossible to.
Disparishun
Active Member
Sorry. It sounded a lot like you were saying that Jews were particularly "visible" to WASPs as opposed to being visible to members of other ethnic groups. (Which is, of course, not so.)
Although, if you are saying that WASPs are more prone than are members of other ethnic groups to discriminating or bearing animus towards Jews, I can tell you that that is not so, either.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Look, all I'm saying is that to some 'white' people that are prone to seek out racial differences, Jews (and others like Eyetalians) can be *just* as visible as any other group. But, according to the article, such white-on-white racism either does not exist or has no impact on the workforce (or is just trivial compared to the plight of racialized second generation Canadians who aren't CEOs even if their parents were dirt farmers in their former countries).
theowne
Active Member
Can someone explain this "Eyetalian" thing to me?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
That's what my grandmother calls Italian people (similar to Eyeraq vs Iraq). She's from a generation that didn't always consider Italian people as belonging to the white majority - which is funny because she would have been considered equally a minority a few generations farther back.
The typical "white majority" vs "racialized minority" conflict presented in the article is much more nebulously defined in reality. Over time, more and more ethnic/racial/religious groups are gathered under the white/majority/whatever banner, and this may or may not coincide with Statcan definitions. Some groups that I consider currently on the periphery of the "majority" (included by some and not others) are Latin Americans and some Middle Easterners like Turks or Lebanese. In the near future, I think a great many Chinese people will no longer be considered a minority by the majority, especially those from Hong Kong...part of the reason is because I was around so many Chinese people growing up that they can seem closer or more normal to me (a generic white guy) than someone from Portugal or Russia.
theowne
Active Member
So is growing up with a certain group what allows them to become the "majority"? As far as I can tell, chinese shops, areas, organizations, etc, still seem to be fairly "distinct".
Black people have been in North America for a very long time, why are they still not considered this way?
As far as I can tell, majority-minority consideration is based on similarity of physical appearance.
Black people have been in North America for a very long time, why are they still not considered this way?
As far as I can tell, majority-minority consideration is based on similarity of physical appearance.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Growing up with people from other groups helps, yes (and I clearly said "part of the reason). And of course Chinese stores, etc., are distinct...I did not say they weren't. As for blacks, I think racial baggage from the US will go a long way in preventing them from moving up in Canada - basically, the fate blacks in Canada depends on what happens south of the border. And, yes, part of it is based on appearance, but intermarriage and multi-racial children may change the scenario that groups get 'majority' status in the order of their physical 'whiteness.'
cruzin4u
Senior Member
What are you, a taxi cab driver?
You are basing your opinion of Toronto police officers by reading an article in the Toronto Sun?
"Discrimination"/"Racism" claims are often used as a tactic. In this case, it seems like one soley to get the industry unionized.
I'm sick of people playing the race card all the time to get what they want.
Claims that Toronto police officers are racist, yet it's these supposed "racist" officers that would not hesitate one second to save the life of someone, regardless of the colour of their skin.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Alas, the scene in Crash...
Anyways, I think claiming that TPS a systematically and intentionally racist organization is a bit ludicrous. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if some officers turns out to be so however.
To me, that's no less different (and annoying) from those who benefitted by the virtue of their race/culture independent of merit.
AoD
Admiral Beez
Superstar
We all benefit from factors beyond our control. Being born white, born male, of parents who cared enough not to drink, smoke or do drugs while pregnant with us, followed by growing up in poverty or wealth, having enough to eat or not, etc.... We're all each affected by the luck of the draw, those factors beyond our control that sometimes benefit us, and sometimes not. I don't see why you find those who benefited from their race/culture as being "annoying".
H
Hydrogen
Guest
I've lost two job opportunities for being the wrong sex. So yes, we are often affected by factors beyond our control.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I said very clearly - independent of merit. That would make it clear why?
AoD
Admiral Beez
Superstar
But then you'd be annoyed with almost everyone, since almost all of us benefit from factors we can't control and without merit, such as our race, height, physical ability, birth parents.