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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

dowlingm said:
Anyone know what signal system Ottawa/RTG are using? If it's Cityflo then that should be a straightforward implementation for Crosstown.

I suspect though that Bombardier will keep the Crosstown order, with Citadis going to Finch, Hurontario and Hamilton with Bombardier then getting Ion Phase 2 and Crosstown West.
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Thales Canada's transportation solutions business division has secured an order to deliver advanced signalling systems for the new Ottawa Light Rail Transit (OLRT) project.

Under the deal, Thales will install its communications-based train control (CBTC) system technology on the 12.5km Ottawa LRT east-west Confederation Line; the company's Toronto office will design, build and maintain the systems in addition to supporting their installation and commissioning.

Thales Canada vice-president and managing director of transportation solutions Michael MacKenzie said that Thales installed its CBTC technology on the Toronto SRT and Vancouver SkyTrain Expo Line in 1985 to provide better operational performance as well as improve safety and reliability.

"In Canada over the years, we added SkyTrain's Millennium and Canada Lines and we are now working on Edmonton Transit's North LRT and Vancouver's Evergreen Line," MacKenzie said.

Thales Canada's CBTC system is semi-automated, incorporating automatic train supervision and protection technology to assist drivers with a safe and reliable operation.
[...]
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http://www.railway-technology.com/n...btc-systems-ottawa-light-rail-transit-project

More here:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/Ottawa LRT PR draft_190213_Final.pdf

Metrolinx is going to have to decide how to get an interoperable standard working for it, and possibly through the Metrolinx Act, impose it province-wide, as sure as giant poo-poos, Transport Canada will be sitting on their arses on this, even as the US moves ahead on it.

At least one major software company (international, who design landings systems for airports and planes with various standards to work together) has released a paper on the subject. I'll find it and post it later.

Edit to Add: See file attached. I have many more on the subject, but the others too large to attach.
 

Attachments

  • ERTMS.pdf
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crs1026 said:
So.... Alstom will supply the Crosstown vehicles but they will be equipped with a signalling system supplied by Bombardier?
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Who knows, the government announcement did indicate that it was possible that the Alstom's would be on Hurontario and Finch instead.

I'd assume if they end up on Eglinton, that the contracts with Bombarder would be cancelled, with Metrolinx paying penalties. Though it's not necessarily the track contracts that would be the issue. I'd think that Bombardier has the maintenance contract might be a bigger problem!

Though I'm not sure how bidders are supposed tackle the Finch and Hurontario LRTs not knowing which vehicles to use.
 
nfitz said:
Who knows, the government announcement did indicate that it was possible that the Alstom's would be on Hurontario and Finch instead.

I'd assume if they end up on Eglinton, that the contracts with Bombarder would be cancelled, with Metrolinx paying penalties. Though it's not necessarily the track contracts that would be the issue. I'd think that Bombardier has the maintenance contract might be a bigger problem!

Though I'm not sure how bidders are supposed tackle the Finch and Hurontario LRTs not knowing which vehicles to use.
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I really want to know if they can actually fit 300 people into one Alstom Citadis LRV. Metrolinx claims a 2-car train can hold 600 oppose to a BBD Freedom 3-car train holding on 490. Metrolinx used numbers way closer to the manufacture specification. TTC will have a much lower number. E.g. The Nova artics are to hold 112 riders but TTC standards is 77. TTC set the streetcars to 130 but ML set the Freedom LRVs to 163. If ML miscalculated this whole capacity thing, they might have not ordered enough Alstom cars. There won't be enough for the 2031 projection ridership.

I did a little math:
Crosstown: 76 LRV
Eg West extension would need ~36 Freedom LRVs (assume no Mt Dennis Stn. short turn)
Eg East extension: ~40 LRVs (assuming 3 car trains as an extension, no Kennedy Stn. short turn)
Hamilton B-Line: ~16 LRVs (project specified: 32min trip time => 72min route trip including layover, 1 LRV train, 6 min headway)
KW ION: 16 additional options

Totals ~184 Freedom LRVs

Metrolinx is not screwed as long as all the project occurs. If Eg East doesn't happen and Sheppard does, it can take the cars. Toronto did sign an agreement to Eg West extension so if TO doesn't fund it, ML can force TO to pay for part of the penalty for those cars. Eg west extension did migrate some of the risk of having too many LRVs. Hamilton would need more cars on day too.

Now that ML has vehicles for Finch, they should sign the contract now and not worry about vehicles. Siemens is probably pissed out they didn't get in.
 
Steve X said:
Siemens is probably pissed out they didn't get in.
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They didn't have a 100% low floor vehicle to compete. The S70 is an excellent vehicle, but even Edmonton went for BBD last bid for their low platform line.

Siemens have an "ultra-low floor" model, but it would have no North Am content to it.
 
Voltz said:
Yes they did, they put in a bid with their Combino Plus model
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Back in 2008? They would have had to set-up Cdn production of it, at least 25% Cdn content to qualify for the bid.
steveintoronto said:
Siemens have an "ultra-low floor" model, but it would have no North Am content to it.
Click to expand...

There was only one other 100% low-floor LRV in production with 25% Cdn content (27% claimed) that could replace the Flexity. And it was chosen.
 
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steveintoronto said:
Back in 2008? They would have had to set-up Cdn production of it, at least 25% Cdn content to qualify for the bid.


There was only one other 100% low-floor LRV with 25% Cdn content (27% claimed) that could replace the Flexity. And it was chosen.
Click to expand...

If you meant the recent order, yes I was referring to TTC order. But since the original Metrolinx order was an option from the TTC order, Siemens did kind of already have their chance here.
 
Voltz said:
If you meant the recent order, yes I was referring to TTC order. But since the original Metrolinx order was an option from the TTC order, Siemens did kind of already have their chance here.
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And where does Siemens have an operation to supply product with 25% or more Cdn content? There was only one other choice besides BBD, and it was chosen. There's a reason this was a sole-source contract.
[...]
The Alstom deal was issued on a sole-source basis, without the normal bidding process that ensures government contracts are set at a competitive price. Metrolinx is permitted to sign sole-source contracts under certain emergency conditions, Del Duca said, but he asserted that the price of the Alstom cars was “comparable” to the Bombardier vehicles.

The minister said that Alstom, which is currently building the same Citadis Spirit vehicles for Ottawa’s Confederation Line, would open an assembly facility in the GTA to fill the order. Metrolinx is also confident the company will be able to meet the same Canadian content requirements as the Bombardier deal, which stipulates at least 25 per cent of the vehicles must be made domestically, as well as meet provincial accessibility standards. [...]
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https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...ier-substitute-for-eglinton-lrt-del-duca.html
 
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Allandale25 said:
And BBD has responded (don't shoot the messenger):

2qdopoo
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“Bombardier is right now producing vehicles for the Region of Waterloo that are identical to those that will be used on the Eglinton Crosstown. All 14 of those vehicles will be delivered to Waterloo by the end of the year.”

That's a year late — assuming no further delays — which has postponed the opening of the line. Funny they forgot to mention that.
 
steveintoronto said:
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/how-transpo-plans-to-get-you-ready-for-lrt
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If everyone would move in the train and not bring their strollers and backpacks, it might work. On the TTC, it might not work. It also takes a lot of time to dwell at every station if the trains are running crush load. I don't see how they'll get anywhere close to 600. Unlike GO Trains, it's not acceptable to wait 1-2 minutes at every station cause a lot of people have to get off.

TheTigerMaster said:
We did? What did this agreement say? I have a hard time believing the City agreed to accept cars for an LRT extension that hasn't yet been approved and finalized by Council.
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Yes, the Eg West as part of SmartTrack has been approved by council without a final price tag. The final design has yet to go through council. Do we have to go through this again? They signed the agreement that TO has to paid of daily maintenance, keeps the farebox revenue and TO will hand ML the money to build Eg West and ST. I doubt ML will let TO off the hook this time if they decide to cancel again like the SRT. Eg East is unapproved.
 
smallspy said:
Except that this is just one particular version of each. There are way more permutations available than the ones listed here.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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I assumed that since ML put it out it was a comparison of the versions that they have contracted to buy from the two suppliers though.
 
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