Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs | Page 83

Discussion in 'Transportation and Infrastructure' started by W. K. Lis, May 6, 2012.

  1. Steve X

    Steve X Senior Member

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    Otherwise it won't run in the tunnels.
     

  2. TheTigerMaster

    TheTigerMaster Superstar

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    The signalling system is supplied by Bombardier, but that doesn't mean it's only compatible with Bombardier trains. I'm assuming Metrolinx wouldn't be so short sighted to install a signalling system that only worked with trains from one manufacturer.

    Curiously, TTC's Line 1 is in the opposite situation. They're running Bombardier supplied trains on a signalling system supplied by Alstom.
     
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  3. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    Indeed, here's the BBD system:
    http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...tions/mass-transit-solutions/cityflo-650.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cityflo_650_CBTC

    And the Thales SelTrac (which is considered by some to be superior and inter-operable with other systems, BBD's not being one):
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/SelTracBrochure_CBTCSolutions_eng.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelTrac

    Both are "CBTC" and at least one poster in another string at this site tried to correct me as per (gist) "PTC and CBTC are not the same thing"...which I'd never stated. The point is that they can be and *are* overlaid. (Crossrail in the UK does this for the main in-tunnel trunk, but common standards are used for the systems) The term "convergence" is coming to the fore, and GO RER are to be equipped with a version of CBTC, ostensibly not BBD's!

    Here's an excellent paper from the US on exactly that, and how the EU directives to (at least on heavy rail) to adhere to an EU wide standard is being accomplished by software as much as hardware to allow interoperability:

    http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1764756

    A much more detailed discussion ensues at Steve Munro's blog.

    There's very real irony in Thales doing the re-signalling for Line 1, but as much as the "two minute headways" are being touted, through no fault of Thales, the TTC doesn't have the stock numbers to make it happen, and is unlikely to do so with present abject budget problems. The TTC is lucky to meet their operating budget, let alone buy the rolling stock needed to meet their latest manic claims.

    Crosstown, is of course, a Metrolinx project, and a model now more than ever to be used for the Relief Line. But of course, one can be banned for a week for making such claims at Urban Toronto.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  4. dowlingm

    dowlingm Senior Member

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    Anyone know what signal system Ottawa/RTG are using? If it's Cityflo then that should be a straightforward implementation for Crosstown.

    I suspect though that Bombardier will keep the Crosstown order, with Citadis going to Finch, Hurontario and Hamilton with Bombardier then getting Ion Phase 2 and Crosstown West.
     
  5. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    http://www.railway-technology.com/n...btc-systems-ottawa-light-rail-transit-project

    More here:
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/Ottawa LRT PR draft_190213_Final.pdf

    Metrolinx is going to have to decide how to get an interoperable standard working for it, and possibly through the Metrolinx Act, impose it province-wide, as sure as giant poo-poos, Transport Canada will be sitting on their arses on this, even as the US moves ahead on it.

    At least one major software company (international, who design landings systems for airports and planes with various standards to work together) has released a paper on the subject. I'll find it and post it later.

    Edit to Add: See file attached. I have many more on the subject, but the others too large to attach.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  6. Amare

    Amare Active Member

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  7. nfitz

    nfitz Superstar

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    Who knows, the government announcement did indicate that it was possible that the Alstom's would be on Hurontario and Finch instead.

    I'd assume if they end up on Eglinton, that the contracts with Bombarder would be cancelled, with Metrolinx paying penalties. Though it's not necessarily the track contracts that would be the issue. I'd think that Bombardier has the maintenance contract might be a bigger problem!

    Though I'm not sure how bidders are supposed tackle the Finch and Hurontario LRTs not knowing which vehicles to use.
     
  8. Steve X

    Steve X Senior Member

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    I really want to know if they can actually fit 300 people into one Alstom Citadis LRV. Metrolinx claims a 2-car train can hold 600 oppose to a BBD Freedom 3-car train holding on 490. Metrolinx used numbers way closer to the manufacture specification. TTC will have a much lower number. E.g. The Nova artics are to hold 112 riders but TTC standards is 77. TTC set the streetcars to 130 but ML set the Freedom LRVs to 163. If ML miscalculated this whole capacity thing, they might have not ordered enough Alstom cars. There won't be enough for the 2031 projection ridership.

    I did a little math:
    Crosstown: 76 LRV
    Eg West extension would need ~36 Freedom LRVs (assume no Mt Dennis Stn. short turn)
    Eg East extension: ~40 LRVs (assuming 3 car trains as an extension, no Kennedy Stn. short turn)
    Hamilton B-Line: ~16 LRVs (project specified: 32min trip time => 72min route trip including layover, 1 LRV train, 6 min headway)
    KW ION: 16 additional options

    Totals ~184 Freedom LRVs

    Metrolinx is not screwed as long as all the project occurs. If Eg East doesn't happen and Sheppard does, it can take the cars. Toronto did sign an agreement to Eg West extension so if TO doesn't fund it, ML can force TO to pay for part of the penalty for those cars. Eg west extension did migrate some of the risk of having too many LRVs. Hamilton would need more cars on day too.

    Now that ML has vehicles for Finch, they should sign the contract now and not worry about vehicles. Siemens is probably pissed out they didn't get in.
     
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  9. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    They didn't have a 100% low floor vehicle to compete. The S70 is an excellent vehicle, but even Edmonton went for BBD last bid for their low platform line.

    Siemens have an "ultra-low floor" model, but it would have no North Am content to it.
     
  10. Voltz

    Voltz Senior Member

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    Yes they did, they put in a bid with their Combino Plus model
     
  11. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    Back in 2008? They would have had to set-up Cdn production of it, at least 25% Cdn content to qualify for the bid.
    There was only one other 100% low-floor LRV in production with 25% Cdn content (27% claimed) that could replace the Flexity. And it was chosen.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  12. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/how-transpo-plans-to-get-you-ready-for-lrt
     
  13. Voltz

    Voltz Senior Member

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    If you meant the recent order, yes I was referring to TTC order. But since the original Metrolinx order was an option from the TTC order, Siemens did kind of already have their chance here.
     
  14. steveintoronto

    steveintoronto Senior Member

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    And where does Siemens have an operation to supply product with 25% or more Cdn content? There was only one other choice besides BBD, and it was chosen. There's a reason this was a sole-source contract.
    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...ier-substitute-for-eglinton-lrt-del-duca.html
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  15. TheTigerMaster

    TheTigerMaster Superstar

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    We did? What did this agreement say? I have a hard time believing the City agreed to accept cars for an LRT extension that hasn't yet been approved and finalized by Council.
     

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