Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[steveintoronto]

And BBD has responded (don't shoot the messenger):

This is purely for optics, of course. Metrolinx was empowered to do what it did (sole-source in an emergency) and BBD is *still* contractually obligated to fulfill the terms of the agreement with ML. Of course, BBD are now hyper-aware of the need to fulfill that agreement. The Court only ruled for an injunction against termination proceedings *at that time*.

As a side note, one really has to wonder about the future of the Collins Bay investment. Would/could BBD hive off that operation and sell it now?

 

[Ozman]

A few more updates:

So if we are going from 76 (30m long) BBD cars to 44 (48m long) Alstom cars, it seems that trains are longer so headway will be larger.

BUT, they were going to run all Eglinton trains in pairs of 2 cars (maybe going to three in the future). So then we'd have 38 (60m long, 2 car) BBD trains vs. 44 (48m long, 1 car) Alstom trains. The BBD trains would be 125% longer than Alstrom but we'll have 16% more trains (44 vs. 38). So we'll lose a little capacity overall but the headway should actually be shortened, which is good for the passenger experience.

And if they want to go to 2 car (96m long) Alstoms in the future (and presumably buy more vehicles), they will fit within the 100m stations and platforms and then we'll have more capacity than we would with the 3 car BBD trains which would be 90m long.

Does that make sense?

 

[nfitz]

The Brussels Flexity's are substantially narrower than the model ordered by Metrolinx.

Yes that was very apparent when they had them in service in Canada. They were clearly sensitive to the issue, as the operator made the same comment themselves just overhearing chatter about the narrow aisles.

 

[nfitz]

The Alstom cars are just longer (48m instead of 30m) so they need less of them. Instead of running trains in sets of 3, they'll run them in sets of 2 which won't change frequencies by much.

Well on Eglinton maybe. But what about lines like Hurontario, where I thought there were planning to run 1-car trains? Given that's going to not be TTC running it, I'd think they would reduce frequencies to match capacity, the way Metrolinx often does with GO.

 

[gweed123]

Well on Eglinton maybe. But what about lines like Hurontario, where I thought there were planning to run 1-car trains? Given that's going to not be TTC running it, I'd think they would reduce frequencies to match capacity, the way Metrolinx often does with GO.

I'm thinking that they may just shift things around and have Eglinton running the Alstom trains and the surface lines running the Bombardier trains. Eglinton is really the only line that's going to be running the vehicles paired together anyway, so might as well run them on the line where there will be no aggregate difference in length between the two (3-car BBD = 2-car Alstom).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well on Eglinton maybe. But what about lines like Hurontario, where I thought there were planning to run 1-car trains? Given that's going to not be TTC running it, I'd think they would reduce frequencies to match capacity, the way Metrolinx often does with GO.

Did you mean to say reduce frequency to match demand?

 

[TOareaFan]

The other thing this order does is change the terms of the RFQ/RFP for Hurontario.....when the RFQ went out, vehicle procurement was a required skill set any responding group had to demonstrate.....now when the RFP comes out it will be dropped?

 

[Allandale25]

Just in case folks hadn't see this before, here's a video explaining the Spirit LRV that'll be used in Ottawa. Sharing in case it's helpful.

 

[Allandale25]

Also, Steve Munro post on the subject.

 

[44 North]

Good. Metrolinx should have gone with dual suppliers at the onset. Yes you pay more due to lower volumes spread over two suppliers, but you benefit from the two competing for your favour.

This is my view, and for the TTC streetcar order too. The orders are so massive that we'd still get great economies of scale regardless. One thing I'm miffed about though is why we couldn't have seen a switch in vehicles years earlier. Many of the arguments for going with a single vehicle for all projects was the perceived benefits of sharing parts, shops, yards. This is very true, but today's news kinda throws a wrench in that notion and allows us to realize it's not a big deal to switch it up. For lines like Line 3/SLRT we could've opted for a high-floor LRV. This would've saved capital costs from not having to modify stations which could've been put toward extending the line or something.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Are there any resources available comparing the Flexity Freedom vs the Citidas Spirit?

 

[nfitz]

Did you mean to say reduce frequency to match demand?

Yes and no ... that's how people tend to (mis-)use the word. I wonder if it's passed the threshold yet, of if everyone says it wrong, they are actually right (I love English).

The other thing this order does is change the terms of the RFQ/RFP for Hurontario.....when the RFQ went out, vehicle procurement was a required skill set any responding group had to demonstrate.....now when the RFP comes out it will be dropped?

Good point - though easy enough just to delete that part of the bid (and partnership). The bigger issue, is there's clauses in there about maintenance some other stuff, that effects on how you want to assemble your project team Some of it becomes more difficult if you don't know which vehicles you are using. Bombardier is already contracted to Crosslinx to do rail control and for the 30-year maintenance contract. How does that work now? I'd think Metrolinx is making themselves open for $$$ in claims.

And what about the TTC. The agreements with them were written on the basis that they were using Flexity equipment. How different is the other equipment to operate. If training costs increase then can TTC make claims as well?

This is just so badly thought out ...

 

[nfitz]

Just to be clear, the Hurontario LRT already goes to Brampton.

Technically I suppose. And technically it's less than 500 metres from Hamilton to the 401.

But I think it was clear what was meant. Recall that language - or at least this one - is not only descriptive, it's also contextual.

 

[Allandale25]

Technically I suppose. And technically it's less than 500 metres from Hamilton to the 401.

But I think it was clear what was meant. Recall that language - or at least this one - is not only descriptive, it's also contextual.

I see your point as well and agree context is relevant. I don't get the "500 metres from Hamilton to the 401" part though. Would you be able to clarify?

 

[Steve X]

So if we are going from 76 (30m long) BBD cars to 44 (48m long) Alstom cars, it seems that trains are longer so headway will be larger.

BUT, they were going to run all Eglinton trains in pairs of 2 cars (maybe going to three in the future). So then we'd have 38 (60m long, 2 car) BBD trains vs. 44 (48m long, 1 car) Alstom trains. The BBD trains would be 125% longer than Alstrom but we'll have 16% more trains (44 vs. 38). So we'll lose a little capacity overall but the headway should actually be shortened, which is good for the passenger experience.

And if they want to go to 2 car (96m long) Alstoms in the future (and presumably buy more vehicles), they will fit within the 100m stations and platforms and then we'll have more capacity than we would with the 3 car BBD trains which would be 90m long.

Does that make sense?

I don't think they* will run one car trains. It just cost more and if ML decides on unidirectional cars, that won't work at all.

"They" as in the TTC. TTC makes the best to squeeze very dime out of the operation. TTC also prefers wider headways with larger vehicles to avoid bunching. Service will probable begin as a 5-6 min service operating with 3-car Flexity or 2-car Citadis trains. (I assumed 3000 pphpd max)
It will take 40 minutes to transverse the line in one direction giving them a good 83-84 min round trip. They can operate 14 trains @ 6 min or 15 trains @ 5.5 min (10-11 trains per hour).

TTC's believes the Flexity streetcar can carry 130 riders. Freedom might carry a little more with doors on both sides. 3 car train would only carry ~400 with TTC's loading standards. A 48m Citadis LRV would hold around 200 (not Alstom's numbers of 280-340 crush load). 10 trains per hour will result in a maximum 4000 ppdph in 2021 (projected 5500 max ppdph in 2031). There is no point of running 15-20 single 48m LRVs @ 3.5min headways IMO. Running 2 car trains from opening day also allows riders to divert to Line 5 in case there's a service disruption on Line 2.

I have faith BBD will actually deliver on time and Citadis LRVs won't be used on Line 5 anyways. We'll see how well they delivery streetcars this year.