smallspy
Senior Member
It was a comparison of those particular versions, sure. But that's by no means that only versions available.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
It was a comparison of those particular versions, sure. But that's by no means that only versions available.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
TOareaFan
Superstar
when I posted it I, honestly, thought that the poster was looking for a comparison of the units purchased....and since I had just seen that table on twitter I pasted it in here....if they were looking for a comparison of all the various versions...then I apologize for misunderstanding.
smallspy
Senior Member
I don't think that it's really a misunderstanding, and an apology isn't required. Think of this more as a clarification, or maybe rather an expansion.
Way too many people get caught up in seeing what has just arrived, or offered, and don't realize that this is just one particular set of values that are available. For instance, the Alstom Citadis that Metrolinx is purchasing is capable of running at 100km/h. That's this particular version - more are limited to 75km/h. And both Bombardier and Siemens offer competing products that are also capable of those same speeds, even though the version that we happened to purchase isn't.
So while a comparison of what two types of LRT is useful and welcome, it's also prudent to be aware that they are by no means a be-all, end-all either.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
TOareaFan
Superstar
It is an interesting point....when I read that table that I subsequently posted here my first thought was "wow, they are bigger, faster and the cost per passenger is lower..........why'd they not get purchased in the first place"......
....what you seem to pointing out (I think) is that it is a bit of a false comparison because BBD could have matched (or got closer to) those results if ML had ordered different a different variant at the onset.
That, kinda, suggests that the ML politicking continues....that they not only went to Alstom and said "we need a back up plan/vehicle" we need one to look good on paper/twitter.
crs1026
Senior Member
The comparison that matters more is Citadis Spirit vs the original ML tender spec. In other words, did ML do its diligence to be certain that this product will meet their needs as well, or better, than the Flexity.
Buying the model that is currently in production in Ontario sounds sensible, as there will be expertise close at hand should problems arise. However, we don't know yet what tradeoffs ML may have accepted versus its original design.
The fact that so many flavours are available is a good thing, in the sense that (in a perfect world) the flavour selected is the best one for the job. But that depends on whether ML did a prudent comparison, versus just asking "what do you have in stock?".
When one is buying an automobile, the car on the lot that the dealer wants to flog is seldom the one that one really wants.
- Paul
Buying the model that is currently in production in Ontario sounds sensible, as there will be expertise close at hand should problems arise. However, we don't know yet what tradeoffs ML may have accepted versus its original design.
The fact that so many flavours are available is a good thing, in the sense that (in a perfect world) the flavour selected is the best one for the job. But that depends on whether ML did a prudent comparison, versus just asking "what do you have in stock?".
When one is buying an automobile, the car on the lot that the dealer wants to flog is seldom the one that one really wants.
- Paul
smallspy
Senior Member
You've got it. The 100 foot length of the Flexity Freedoms is what was originally envisioned as a good building block length for all of the lines. Low ridership during the evenings or weekends? Run one car. Busy during the rush hours? Run two cars. Ridership growth over the years? Time for a third car.
The Citadis Spirits at almost 150 feet make it much harder to build up trains of appropriate lengths for the various lines, not to mention all of the changes that will be necessary to the maintenance facilities to handle them. Hell, I've been talking with a friend at TTC's Planning Department, and they haven't even seen any data about whether the Alstom cars will fit in the tunnels of the Crosstown. (He's really not concerned that they won't - it's more that they had to go through weeks and weeks of design process to ensure that the Bombardier cars would, and that hasn't happened yet with the new cars.)
There is a very serious reek of desperation coming from Metrolinx's headquarters right now...
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Cobra
Senior Member
Fun news regarding Bombardier:
AMT (Agence Métropolitaine de transport) gave the contract to a Chinese company, China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation, instead of Bombardier for commuter trains.
https://www.lesaffaires.com/bourse/...bombardier-echappe-le-contrat-de-l-amt/594936
Bombardier reaction? Humility? Nope, try anger lol!!!
https://www.lesaffaires.com/bourse/...ontrat-a-la-chine-bombardier-en-colere/594943
AMT (Agence Métropolitaine de transport) gave the contract to a Chinese company, China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation, instead of Bombardier for commuter trains.
https://www.lesaffaires.com/bourse/...bombardier-echappe-le-contrat-de-l-amt/594936
Bombardier reaction? Humility? Nope, try anger lol!!!
https://www.lesaffaires.com/bourse/...ontrat-a-la-chine-bombardier-en-colere/594943
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
Which is why Metrolinx has no business doing this if they don't know what they are doing.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Here's some background to BBD hoisting themselves on their own petard:
[...]
Bombardier, the sole bidder for the project when the call for tenders was put out in December 2015, told the AMT it was unable to provide the cars within the AMT’s 24-month deadline.
[...]
http://globalnews.ca/news/2705983/m...ancels-double-decker-commuter-train-contract/
See also:
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/amt-quietly-dumps-order-for-bombardier-trains-1.2905849
Almost a year ago to the day...
Steve X
Senior Member
I don't think their length is that concerning for the Crosstown. Large vehicles mean wider headway with the TTC. They do it with their artic buses, ALRVs and Flexity cars. For a small system like The ION, Hamilton B-Line and maybe Hurontario on weekends, they'll have a lot of trouble with larger vehicles. They'll going to be too unoccupied and they can't stretch the headways wider without making the line very unattractive.
Today on Eglinton from Keele to Laird, they run at least 2-3 buses every 10 minutes at all regular service hours or 80-120 riders. A train with just one Alstom LRV @ 10 minutes during late night would provide the same seating capacity. It's just east of Don Mills, the line would be over service if it does not attract any new riders nor does it divert any riders from Line 2.
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
iON Phase II won't take any Alstom trains. Phase I platforms are already built to Flexity Freedom specifications. the ION system can absorb some of the excess Flexity Freedoms through system growth when needed (first projected service growth is for 2021).
smallspy
Senior Member
The length is absolutely concerning. And not just from the obvious standpoint of the dynamic loading gauge of the vehicles in the tunnels - the maintenance facilities may have to be redesigned to allow for a longer vehicle and their longer wheelbase. And for service too - the original service designs planned that much of the service will be provided by 2-car trains, with 1-car trains being used at night on weekends. A 2-car train of Citadis Spirits is not the same length or capacity as a 2-car train of Flexity Freedoms, and thus all of those plans that they'd come up with now need to be rethought because of the increase in size of the equipment and the corresponding decrease in fleet size.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
KevinT
Active Member
Absolutely. The OMSF for Ion is purpose built to the Flexities, with in-floor jacks matching their bogie spacing and hard-points to permit a fast bogie swap for maintenance. I believe it was similar with the spacing of equipment in the re-sanding facility. To handle both a Flexity and Citadis would take either a more complicated OMSF design, or a larger one with parallel train-specific sections. Either way the costs go up. At least none of the other OMSFs have started construction yet...
drum118
Superstar
The one question I have, will ION curves be able to handle Citadis cars in the first place? The OMSF will be an issue for ION at this time for Citadis cars. Only need one car from day one until ridership grows to the point you need the 2nd car.
As people say, Metrolinx has no tracks to store cars on, let alone test them, it possible to ship one Citadis car to ION for testing in the rail corridor, but maintenance and changes to the car will/could be an issue.
If a plant is to be built in the Toronto area, Metrolinx Obico lands would be a good site as it has access to Metrolinx track as well storage tracks in the Canpa Sub . To move the cars from the plant to the Crosstown Yard, you build a special coupler on both ends of an locomotive to allow the loco to do run around to deal with change of direction at Bathurst and Crosstown yard. This allow 2-4 cars to be move at night from the plant to the yard or what every X cars will be move at a time.
Anyway, nice to hear the news after getting home from my shorten holiday and confirms what I was told a few weeks ago.
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