York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[ShonTron]

So YRT is taking over the 69 Newmarket-Sutton-Pefferlaw bus from GO Transit, and in the process, manage to fook it up.

Currently, GO has hourly bus service from Sutton to Newmarket weekdays and Saturdays mornings, with additional peak period trips. Less service beyond to Pefferlaw and Beaverton, and less counter-peak service (every two hours) and evenings and Sundays. It's not great, but given the rural nature of this route, understandable.

On paper, YRT's service to Sutton is better, but instead of an even 60 minute service, they decide to go with a 57 minute one-way schedule! The ride is longer, 9 minutes end-to-end.

Why not go with a proper 60-minute headway (with additional rush trips from Keswick south) is incomprehensible.

http://yrt.ca/en/serviceupdates/resources/50.pdf

 

[CDL.TO]

So YRT is taking over the 69 Newmarket-Sutton-Pefferlaw bus from GO Transit, and in the process, manage to fook it up.

Currently, GO has hourly bus service from Sutton to Newmarket weekdays and Saturdays mornings, with additional peak period trips. Less service beyond to Pefferlaw and Beaverton, and less counter-peak service (every two hours) and evenings and Sundays. It's not great, but given the rural nature of this route, understandable.

On paper, YRT's service to Sutton is better, but instead of an even 60 minute service, they decide to go with a 57 minute one-way schedule! The ride is longer, 9 minutes end-to-end.

Why not go with a proper 60-minute headway (with additional rush trips from Keswick south) is incomprehensible.

http://yrt.ca/en/serviceupdates/resources/50.pdf

The failure to implement what could have been an easy clock-face schedule makes me wonder what the YRT route planners were thinking!

 

[taal]

Do YRT planners ever think ! All I'll give them credit for is Visa, which was a great decision at the time, along with the ambitious plans for Hi-way 7 and Yonge for viva next.

 

[canarob]

Yeah, VIVA will be a great backbone once the BRT is complete, but the service on most other routes is pretty pathetic. Major roads like Markham Road, which is being built up with low rise condos, townhomes and retail need more than three buses an hour if we want people to actually use transit. I know many people who get dropped off by car at VIVA stations along Highway 7 because the N-S service is so poor.

 

[ShonTron]

There really needs to be 15 minute base service (weekdays rush and middays, and where warranted, Saturday middays, if not, every 20) on the north-south routes like Markham, McCowan, Leslie, Bayview, Bathurst, Dufferin, Keele, Jane and on Rutherford/16th, Major Mack and Davis, with minimum 30 minute service for all other times.

Schedules should be clock-face. 60 minutes for rural/exurban services (like the new route 50) and special community routes, then every 30, 20, 15, 12, 10 and below 10, it doesn't matter. Interline routes if need be to reach that magic 30 or 20 minute schedule.

 

[Transportfan]

So YRT is taking over the 69 Newmarket-Sutton-Pefferlaw bus from GO Transit, and in the process, manage to fook it up.

Currently, GO has hourly bus service from Sutton to Newmarket weekdays and Saturdays mornings, with additional peak period trips. Less service beyond to Pefferlaw and Beaverton, and less counter-peak service (every two hours) and evenings and Sundays. It's not great, but given the rural nature of this route, understandable.

On paper, YRT's service to Sutton is better, but instead of an even 60 minute service, they decide to go with a 57 minute one-way schedule! The ride is longer, 9 minutes end-to-end.

Interesting you should post that, as I just took that route to go camping at Sibbald Point Thursday. The driver annouced the change over the PA, and a passenger mentioned how bad an idea it was to have YRT take it over. Using city buses for a rural route isn't good as city buses don't have the luggage compartments where I placed the large Rubbermaid box containing my gear. Other passengers needed the compartment as well.

 

[ShonTron]

York Region Transit's service changes for September are up.

Apart from one case, I don't see any non-seasonal cuts. But lots of schedule "adjustments", many are a mockery of how bus schedules should be designed.

For example, route 2 Milliken goes from every 37 to 39 minutes midday (why not make it an even 40 in this case?). At least evening and late evening service go from 29 to 30 and 58 to 60. Route 4 goes from 22 minutes to 29(!) minutes Sat/Sun middays. Route 77 goes from every 30 min Saturday to every 31 min!

Most interestingly, Viva Orange finally reflects the low demand and duplication with Brampton Transit's Zum 501.

In conjection with Brampton improving weekday 501/501A service (20 minutes for each branch, or every 10 min in Brampton midday/early evening, 15 minutes for each branch, or 7.5 minute service peaks) weekdays, Viva Orange will be cut back to every 15-20 min weekdays. Makes sense.

Weekend late evening weekday service on Orange will be every 30 min, as will 501 service, maintaining 15 minute service on Highway 7. Brampton Transit will be running half their buses weekends on the 501A express 407 branch.

The issue here is falf the service service between Downsview and York U - it's a big pain in the butt transfering to the 196 at York with all the construction. I'd like (hope) to see Brampton Transit Zum pick up the slack.

 

[doady]

Do YRT planners ever think ! All I'll give them credit for is Visa, which was a great decision at the time, along with the ambitious plans for Hi-way 7 and Yonge for viva next.

I'd argue that VIVA was a huge disaster for York Region. It was a huge service increase, but the ridership fell way short of projections. They got 17.1 million riders in 2006 instead of the 19.4 million they were expecting. They did not reach 19.4 million until 2010.

VIVA became a huge drain on the transit system in York. Eventually, VIVA had to be cut back significantly, and service improvements for regular YRT were stalled. And eventually both VIVA and YRT saw cuts and as you can see they still are. The downward spiral started with VIVA. VIVA was just bunch of nonsensical lines on the map, like Transit City.

I think York Region would have higher transit ridership and service today if they had not implemented VIVA. Consider the fact that ridership actually grew slower in York Region since VIVA compared to Brampton and Mississauga:

[B][U]RIDERSHIP PER CAPITA, 2005-2011[/U]

System			2005	2011	Change[/B]
York Region Transit	16.5	18.2	+10.3%
Brampton Transit	22.47	29.90	+33.1%
Mississauga Transit	39.99 	44.35 	+10.9%

 

[Hipster Duck]

I wonder how much of YRT's potential ridership was eaten up by improvements to 407 GO bus service, especially since they largely parallel Viva Purple. OTOH, Viva blue did basically take all the riders from the old Yonge GO bus service, so maybe it's a tit for tat.

The other factor I wonder about is whether socio-economics affects York region's transit ridership more than, say, Brampton. Brampton has a lot of potentially captive riders (working class people who owned a car because they absolutely had to, but it was a financial squeeze), whereas York region is pretty affluent and would have to convince choice riders to give up their cars.

 

[ShonTron]

I wonder how much of YRT's potential ridership was eaten up by improvements to 407 GO bus service, especially since they largely parallel Viva Purple. OTOH, Viva blue did basically take all the riders from the old Yonge GO bus service, so maybe it's a tit for tat.

The other factor I wonder about is whether socio-economics affects York region's transit ridership more than, say, Brampton. Brampton has a lot of potentially captive riders (working class people who owned a car because they absolutely had to, but it was a financial squeeze), whereas York region is pretty affluent and would have to convince choice riders to give up their cars.

Brampton could possibly be a partial vice versa - how many new riders were picked up by offering cheaper express services to York University, diverting riders from GO's 407 service?

 

[doady]

Most 407 GO bus riders travel to the GO bus stop by using local transit, e.g. York Region Transit and Brampton Transit.

 

[taal]

wow that's the first time I heard of Viva as a failure, but when you put it like that I can see it to a certain degree.

What about the hi-way 7 transit way, that will be the biggest test by far, do you think that will be a failure ? And juding it should be easy ... how much ridership increases ... one would think a failure here would be terrible ... given a billion + was spent on this.

But its hard to believe, there are many offices along Hi-way 7, and the # keeps going up. As of late i.e. the last 5 years or so, there have also been many condo projects. One would surly think in time this will increase ridership.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'd argue that VIVA was a huge disaster for York Region. It was a huge service increase, but the ridership fell way short of projections. They got 17.1 million riders in 2006 instead of the 19.4 million they were expecting. They did not reach 19.4 million until 2010.

VIVA became a huge drain on the transit system in York. Eventually, VIVA had to be cut back significantly, and service improvements for regular YRT were stalled. And eventually both VIVA and YRT saw cuts and as you can see they still are. The downward spiral started with VIVA. VIVA was just bunch of nonsensical lines on the map, like Transit City.

[B][U]RIDERSHIP PER CAPITA, 2005-2011[/U]

System			2005	2011	Change[/B]
York Region Transit	16.5	18.2	+10.3%
Brampton Transit	22.47	29.90	+33.1%
Mississauga Transit	39.99 	44.35 	+10.9%

I take issue with almost everything there.

First, to call Hw7 and Yonge Street random lines on a map is riddiculous. They're obviously both the major N/S and E/W routes in the densest part of the region, to say nothing of being the connectors with both the urban growth centres and the TTC expansions (ie Spadina and, eventually, Yonge); it's obviously the spine of the system.

And quoting the 2011 numbers is totally misleading due to the strike. Without the strike they would certainly have broken 20 million riders, and likely 21M. Even with the strike they hit a ridership record, IIRC. The per capita numbers are also probably off a bit since a lot of people south of Hwy. 7 skip YRT to board TTC because of the double fare (me included).

A quick look shows they hit 19.8M riders compared to 5.5M in 2006.
Brampton has 16.3M now and had 10.1M in 2006.
That's 260% growth on YRT (after the York U strike and the YRT strike) compared to 60% growth in Brampton.

It's also unfair to call Viva a failure when it's only been a half-system to this point. Give it a couple of years as BRT (which is what it was designed to be) before giving it a grade.

So, you were saying....?

 

[ShonTron]

I take issue with almost everything there.

And quoting the 2011 numbers is totally misleading due to the strike. Without the strike they would certainly have broken 20 million riders, and likely 21M. Even with the strike they hit a ridership record, IIRC. The per capita numbers are also probably off a bit since a lot of people south of Hwy. 7 skip YRT to board TTC because of the double fare (me included).

A quick look shows they hit 19.8M riders compared to 5.5M in 2006.
Brampton has 16.3M now and had 10.1M in 2006.
That's 260% growth on YRT (after the York U strike and the YRT strike) compared to 60% growth in Brampton.

It's also unfair to call Viva a failure when it's only been a half-system to this point. Give it a couple of years as BRT (which is what it was designed to be) before giving it a grade.

So, you were saying....?

Ha ha. I take issue with one big argument you give. Making a righteous argument quoting 2006 numbers for YRT before the takeover of GO's Yonge B service and comparing it to Brampton's smaller, but real apples-to-apples 2006-2011 growth (all without taking over other routes) is laughable.

I will agree though that there's nothing random about Viva's route map.

 

[doady]

I take issue with almost everything there.

First, to call Hw7 and Yonge Street random lines on a map is riddiculous. They're obviously both the major N/S and E/W routes in the densest part of the region, to say nothing of being the connectors with both the urban growth centres and the TTC expansions (ie Spadina and, eventually, Yonge).

I was referring to original VIVA plan. Which had Purple and Orange overlapping along Highway 7 in Vaughan (more service than VIVA Blue), and of course there was VIVA Green, which to this day still sees less than a thousand boardings per weekday. It was poorly thought out plan.

And quoting the 2011 numbers is totally misleading due to the strike. Without the strike they would almost certainly have broken 20 million riders.

Are you suggesting that 2010 saw higher ridership for YRT than 2011? Because it didn't.

That's just a single year though. The point is about long term trends. The fact is the ridership growth since 2005 has been less than impressive and far short of YRT's own projections.

Maybe the constant strikes YRT experiences are a factor, but whose fault is that? How many transit strikes have Mississauga and Brampton experienced in the past 5 years compared to York Region?

Even with the strike they hit a ridership record, IIRC. The per capita numbers are also probably off a bit since a lot of people south of Hwy. 7 skip YRT to board TTC because of the double fare.

The TTC doesn't change the fact that the per capita ridership of York Region hasn't improved much, and fell well short of YRT projections.

With the takeover of GO routes and spending on $180 million on the first phase of VIVA, even YRT expected accelerated growth of YRT ridership and instead the rate of growth has only declined. The growth since VIVA has consistantly failed to meet YRT's own predictions, which means less fare revenue, budget shortfalls, and constant service cuts.

YRT projected ridership, 2005
2006 - 19.4M
2007 - 22.1M
2008 - 23.9M
2009 - 26.4M
2010 - 28.4M
source

YRT revised ridership projections, 2006
2006 - 17.5M
2007 - 20.1M
2008 - 22.4M
2009 - 24.6M
2010 - 26.8M
source

YRT actual ridership, 2005-2011
2005 - 15.4M
2006 - 17.1M
2007 - 18.4M
2008 - 18.8M
2009 - 18.3M*
2010 - 19.4M
2011 - 19.8M
* - decline due to recession

A quick look shows they hit 19.8M riders compared to 5.5M in 2006. That's hardly anything to sneeze at.
Brampton has 16.3M now and had 10.1M in 2006.
That's 260% growth on YRT (after the York U strike and the YRT strike) compared to 60% growth in Brampton.

YRT had a ridership of 17.1 million in 2006. Again, the per capita ridership growth between 2005-2011 was lower for YRT than both Mississauga and Brampton.

It's also unfair to call Viva a failure when it's only been a half-system to this point. Give it a couple of years as BRT (which is what it was designed to be) before giving it a grade.

They were calling it "BRT" from the beginning and the fact is they spent $180 million dollars. With so much money spent, YRT should be the fastest growing system, and indeed YRT's own projections of growth were higher than any other system in the GTA, but it didn't come true. Which is why they have been basically constantly cutting service since VIVA.

Based on the evidence, I think VIVA is not only a failure, but I also think it has been detrimental to transit in York Region as a whole. But that's just my opinion I guess.