Urban Shocker
Doyenne
What do you suggest - that Toronto in 2008 should imitate Vancouver in 1969?
|
|
|
With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
theman23
Active Member
Agreed. If anything, the tensions in the USA, France, etc. are proof that nations with a group of vocal fascists supporting their mythical "melting pot" are more likely to have trouble with immigration. Is it any wonder that immigrants in these countries are so segregated, considering the amount of arrogance displayed towards them by pundits in the media? The political commentary on the issue is far more liberal (and reasonable) here in Canada.
Dichotomy
Banned
Either we do a better job of integrating these newcomers into our society or make our rules far more strict. In the end, we aren't doing them or ourselves any favors with the way things are.
Stats Can's own studies show that the latest wave of new Canadians are not integrating. They are performing more poorly than previous waves. I can think of a dozen reasons why, but one of the main reasons is that they are 'ghettoizing' (if that's even a word?) themselves more than previous generations did.
Here are some big factors that have changed since the late '60s:
1) Phone cards, the internet and satellite TV. TV used to be one major way
new Canadians could learn English. Now they can just beam in their
favorite networks from around the globe. $1 a minute to talk to your
mother in Singapore? Try $5 for 30 minutes. No more isolation, no more
incentive to become 'Canadian.'
2) Cheap airfare. Fly home once a year. Bring your family here for visits.
Thirty years ago that was expensive; 75 years ago it was impossible.
3) The immigration industry. Unscrupulous 'paralegals' and organizations
extoll the ease with which jobs and status can be found here. Try
learning English while driving a cab 12 hours a day and going home to 4
screaming brats. www.notgonnahappen.com Try getting a job without
highschool education or written skills. You can't drive a truck without
education and paperwork.
It's a different country than 40 years ago. Obviously. But in many ways it is not moving forward.
Stats Can's own studies show that the latest wave of new Canadians are not integrating. They are performing more poorly than previous waves. I can think of a dozen reasons why, but one of the main reasons is that they are 'ghettoizing' (if that's even a word?) themselves more than previous generations did.
Here are some big factors that have changed since the late '60s:
1) Phone cards, the internet and satellite TV. TV used to be one major way
new Canadians could learn English. Now they can just beam in their
favorite networks from around the globe. $1 a minute to talk to your
mother in Singapore? Try $5 for 30 minutes. No more isolation, no more
incentive to become 'Canadian.'
2) Cheap airfare. Fly home once a year. Bring your family here for visits.
Thirty years ago that was expensive; 75 years ago it was impossible.
3) The immigration industry. Unscrupulous 'paralegals' and organizations
extoll the ease with which jobs and status can be found here. Try
learning English while driving a cab 12 hours a day and going home to 4
screaming brats. www.notgonnahappen.com Try getting a job without
highschool education or written skills. You can't drive a truck without
education and paperwork.
It's a different country than 40 years ago. Obviously. But in many ways it is not moving forward.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I graduated in '03. Out of a class of 100, about 40 were white, 30 were asian, 20 south asian and about 3 black people. That doesn't add up, but it gives the gist. I don't know what you want to interpret from that... Markham ftw!
kEiThZ
Superstar
What we should be worrying about is the distribution of immigrants. As long as immigrants congregate in a few urban areas, multi-culturalism will be a myth. I understand why this happens, but the government has to encourage immigrants to migrate to less settled parts of the country. Or we will be in real trouble.
Our major cities (the big 3 in particular) are already straining under the load of providing for these people. There are infrastructure, housing, social services and employment challenges to name a few. Add to that a real urban/rural divide that could develop as those outside the cities see less of themselves in our urban centres and we have a recipe for a real split. It won't be along race lines per se. Cities will simply become the euphemism for race (non-whites in particular).
Case in point: Herouxville, which just wanted to avoid becoming Montreal when they got swamped by the "heavy load" of two non-white immigrant families.
Our major cities (the big 3 in particular) are already straining under the load of providing for these people. There are infrastructure, housing, social services and employment challenges to name a few. Add to that a real urban/rural divide that could develop as those outside the cities see less of themselves in our urban centres and we have a recipe for a real split. It won't be along race lines per se. Cities will simply become the euphemism for race (non-whites in particular).
Case in point: Herouxville, which just wanted to avoid becoming Montreal when they got swamped by the "heavy load" of two non-white immigrant families.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
That is partially true. The economic performance of recent immigrants is declining relative to earlier arrivals. Cheap airfare and phone cards are not the primary cause of this decline though. On the topic of "ghettoization", this term is thrown around in a lot of contexts it really shouldn't be. People take any neighborhood with an majority of one particular ethnicity and call it a "ghetto." By this standard, the Jews at Bathurst and Lawrence are "ghettoized." Wasps living in Rosedale are also "ghettoized" by this definition. Ghettos apply to situations where people of a common ethnicities are forced together with no choice on the matter.
The main cause of the decline is that Ontario's economy hasn't been growing enough to warrant hundreds of thousands of new immigrants a year. I don't mean to sound callous, but there simply isn't work for these people. The worst part is that their credentials are either ignored, dooming them to menial service sector jobs, or not in demand. I can't figure out why we headhunt thousands of doctors and pharmacists from the third world only to reject their credentials when they get here. We should be encouraging those in the trades to immigrate to Canada. We have a critical shortage of skilled and unskilled tradesman. Historically, immigrants tended to work in construction and manufacturing. Partially as it is one field where English skills are not front and center.
I personally cannot figure out why we hire handfuls of PhD who are innevitably forced to drive cabs while the only people I can hire to put up drywall are 2nd generation Italians and Polacks from Woodbridge at 50$/hour. If we brought immigrants to work in the resource sector, virtually all of our problems would be solved. As it is, mines pay upwards of 100$/hour for entry level positions, with large amounts of time off. Cost of living in rural communities is virtually zero (you can buy a nice house in Wawa for 30k)
EDIT: I strongly agree with kEiThZ point about the distribution of immigrants. The ethnic gap between urban and rural Canada could become a significant issue if left unattended.
theowne
Active Member
I spent a few minutes trying to find the message behind this post, but couldn't. What exactly are you trying to say here?
adma
Superstar
Depends what you mean by "they". Don't mistake a sentimental bond for one's youth with paranoia about the present--and as far as the paranoid is concerned, well, Darwinism will take care of that...
Admiral Beez
Superstar
So, basically being Canadian is just a question of geography of birth? Surely we could consider someone, from wherever they're born that embraces Canada's existing culture, history, official languages, legal and rights systems is more of a Canadian than someone who is born in Canada, never embraces or learns our language(s), culture?
Dichotomy
Banned
Funny that you would invoke the Darwin clause: doesn't it strike you that what is happening in the West right now runs contrary to natural selection? What other culture or group has ever subverted its own interests for those of others? Would one lion pride let another one simply move in and take over? Or would they put up a fight?
If we treat other cultures as immutable, but our own is evolving, it begs the question that, ultimately, who will assimilate who?
theowne
Active Member
Agreed! Take up arms! Call up the army! We've stood by too long, people! Arrange yourselves into groups and collect your weapons, goal: Annihilate any Chinese restaurant or Indian fabric shop you see!
cacruden
Senior Member
How does it run contrary to natural selection? That statement can be interpreted to think that the "current canadian" is a superior biological organism and if natural selection were to run it's course - would survive while those lesser organisms (from other non-western countries) would cease to exist....
What criteria are you applying? Is it monetary? (Money is not even from the "natural world")
Dichotomy
Banned
The only criteria that matters: where are people emigrating from and immigrating too?
There are no container loads of British folks washing up on Thailand's shores. There are no Mexicans clamoring to get into Russia. There are no Germans fighting to get into Senegal.
If we allow ourselves to be diluted and over-whelmed, then we are doomed to be dragged down to the levels of the nations that people are fleeing from.
I am not asserting that immigration should be stopped, I am only stating that we need to demand and expect more from these people, particularly in a country as 'small' as Canada is.
A call to arms is silly and only deflects the seriousness of the debate. I know people who have gone back to their homeland because they didn't like what they saw happening here. I had a female client from Macedonia who decried what is happening in Canada. Although I found it amusing for her to spat about other immigrants, she did have a point: she fled her country because what certain ethnic groups are doing there, only to see the same trends here.
One should observe a volleyball match at the downtown Y to see where we are headed: Asians on one side, South Americans on the other, all hurling insults at each other.
Lest we forget that 'ghetto dude' remark two summers ago came from a temp student of hyphenated Canadian-Asian persuasion. Of course, it was McGuinty who had to do all the 'apologizing.'
urbandreamer
recession proof
The best place in Toronto to watch "multi-culti" in action:
Your local Tim Horton's!
I sometimes purposely go to Timmies just to see the real diversity of folks--my favourite is the Bloor and Bedford branch.
But it is true, many wealthy "establishment" in Toronto are frightened of change. From Forest Hill to the Annex, I've seen and heard much fear.
("Nonsense," I reply. But then I like meeting new people and get bored staring at the same old lame old....
)
Your local Tim Horton's!
I sometimes purposely go to Timmies just to see the real diversity of folks--my favourite is the Bloor and Bedford branch.
But it is true, many wealthy "establishment" in Toronto are frightened of change. From Forest Hill to the Annex, I've seen and heard much fear.
("Nonsense," I reply. But then I like meeting new people and get bored staring at the same old lame old....
)
Mustapha
Senior Member
Lots of view points here. I'll chime in with mine.
*We need to restrict immigration for a few years; I think. I'm looking around and the economy isn't supporting this level.
*The areas where some newcomers tend to congregate... this is unavoidable... done out of a feeling of security/comfort/mutual support.
*In my lily white nabe, many visible minority descendants of immigrants are seeking/have bought homes. They, as I, have no feelings or affinity for some faraway land. I was born here and feel 100% CDN. I've never even been to my grandparents village. In fact, as a visible minority, my favourite city besides this one, is London.
*We need to restrict immigration for a few years; I think. I'm looking around and the economy isn't supporting this level.
*The areas where some newcomers tend to congregate... this is unavoidable... done out of a feeling of security/comfort/mutual support.
*In my lily white nabe, many visible minority descendants of immigrants are seeking/have bought homes. They, as I, have no feelings or affinity for some faraway land. I was born here and feel 100% CDN. I've never even been to my grandparents village. In fact, as a visible minority, my favourite city besides this one, is London.