With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[Tewder]

Canada needs immigrants, as do many developed western nations where birth rates are declining. We are doing those immigrants an injustice, however, when we do little to integrate or assimilate them, and when there is little of a national ethos or identity to welcome and embrace them. Is it any wonder that many turn to insular communities or come to feel marginalized or isolated? Is it any wonder that many Canadians come to feel xenophobic or suspicious of those who come here and are seen to be so disengaged from mainstream society?

 

[adma]

We are doing those immigrants an injustice, however, when we do little to integrate or assimilate them, and when there is little of a national ethos or identity to welcome and embrace them.

Maybe it's less a matter of "we", than of "who's".

In a way, I find that the the weakest links in Canadian culture are those which are incapable of making the most of the "immigrant issue".

I guess it's the difference between "raised in Scarborough, moved downtown" vs "raised in Scarborough, moved to Barrie"...

 

[theowne]

The remaining European powers are themselves grappling with recent immigration challenges. Both Great Britain and France are struggling with what to do with the failure of recent immigrants to 'integrate.'

Can't compare Europe with North America. It is a completely different story. Countries like France have firmly rooted histories, as nations on the same soil, stretching back through history. Canada & America have always been nations of immigrants. Ever since the first encounter with natives, they cannot be compared to countries like Denmark or Japan. Canada has never had as unified and singular a culture as Finland did. That is simply the nature of our history and foundations.

 

[ganjavih]

With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

Less rednecks. We seem to have enough already based on this thread.

 

[Dichotomy]

Can't compare Europe with North America. It is a completely different story. Countries like France have firmly rooted histories, as nations on the same soil, stretching back through history. Canada & America have always been nations of immigrants. Ever since the first encounter with natives, they cannot be compared to countries like Denmark or Japan. Canada has never had as unified and singular a culture as Finland did. That is simply the nature of our history and foundations.

There is a lot of truth in that statement, however, if we don't get our acts together here in Canada, we will be the ones assimilated.

I mentioned Europe because their negative birthrates are creating problems that we have yet to encounter (but may soon.) What's the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. What is the most popular boy's name in Belgium? Mohammed. By 2005, it was the 5th most popular name in the UK.

Look at the mess Japan is in. It's economy has been in tatters for over a decade because it's birth rate is in a negative spiral and they don't encourage immigration. How is Europe going to afford its top heavy social services with no young population to support it? More immigration from North Africa? The population in some of France's cities is already 30% Muslim.

Why did Serbia collapse in the worse slaughter since WWII? Bosnian Serbs went from 43 to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims went from 26 to 44%. In a democratic age, you can't buck demography, except through civil war.

What we are seeing unfold in Europe today is a harbinger of things to come. A stable country needs 2.1 births per woman. Europe as a whole has 1.38. Russia 1.14 (which is why I am so worried about their border with China!) Canada is at 1.48. Where are the future populations going to come from? And how will they materially affect our democratic, pluralistic societies?

If we aren't even 'allowed' to discuss the issue as adults, without it degenerating into a shrill, name calling match, we are doomed.

 

[theman23]

The percentage of foreign born Canadians is already far greater than in any Western European country. Why have things gone fairly well here, then? Maybe there is more to demographics than simply being "foreign born" or even "Muslim"? Hmm?

Also, the numbers you cite are suspect. Less Mark Steyn (or whichever other commentator that you're gleaming statistics from), and more actual census data please.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is a lot of truth in that statement, however, if we don't get our acts together here in Canada, we will be the ones assimilated.

I mentioned Europe because their negative birthrates are creating problems that we have yet to encounter (but may soon.) What's the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. What is the most popular boy's name in Belgium? Mohammed. By 2005, it was the 5th most popular name in the UK.

Look at the mess Japan is in. It's economy has been in tatters for over a decade because it's birth rate is in a negative spiral and they don't encourage immigration. How is Europe going to afford its top heavy social services with no young population to support it? More immigration from North Africa? The population in some of France's cities is already 30% Muslim.

Why did Serbia collapse in the worse slaughter since WWII? Bosnian Serbs went from 43 to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims went from 26 to 44%. In a democratic age, you can't buck demography, except through civil war.

What we are seeing unfold in Europe today is a harbinger of things to come. A stable country needs 2.1 births per woman. Europe as a whole has 1.38. Russia 1.14 (which is why I am so worried about their border with China!) Canada is at 1.48. Where are the future populations going to come from? And how will they materially affect our democratic, pluralistic societies?

If we aren't even 'allowed' to discuss the issue as adults, without it degenerating into a shrill, name calling match, we are doomed.

I am sure you've been to Europe and seen how they treat immigrants. I would never want to live there. Even when I travel for work, with a Canadian military uniform on, I am asked when did I move to Canada. Or when did I get my citizenship. There is no assumption that I am a native born son of Canada. That's a question no Canadian has ever asked me.

I am glad for our history. The biggest difference between the New World and the Old World is that the New World is a dynamic place where our tapestry is still being sewn and constantly refreshed with new people. This is the fundamental strength of Canada and the US, that we take people from anywhere in the world and accept them as our own. Try being a black muslim in Paris. Even after generations they are never accepted into the European societies. This is why they have problems with integration. Deep down they all wish the darkies would go home. And that's why the New World will survive as the Old World ages and decays into uselessness.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Indeed, that's why we have to be really careful when we talk (much less implement policies) about national ethos and identity - because more often than not these are subtle and not so subtle levers of exclusion.

What we should demand of immigrants is that they follow the law - our law - because that's what's demanded of every other citizen (and violations in this area should NOT be treated lightly). Everything else we should accord them maximal freedom - and that's very Canadian.

AoD

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I am sure you've been to Europe and seen how they treat immigrants. I would never want to live there. Even when I travel for work, with a Canadian military uniform on, I am asked when did I move to Canada. Or when did I get my citizenship. There is no assumption that I am a native born son of Canada. That's a question no Canadian has ever asked me.

I am glad for our history. The biggest difference between the New World and the Old World is that the New World is a dynamic place where our tapestry is still being sewn and constantly refreshed with new people. This is the fundamental strength of Canada and the US, that we take people from anywhere in the world and accept them as our own. Try being a black muslim in Paris. Even after generations they are never accepted into the European societies. This is why they have problems with integration. Deep down they all wish the darkies would go home. And that's why the New World will survive as the Old World ages and decays into uselessness.

are you sure it's ethnic tensions? it could be religious tensions. there is an increasing incidence of islamic fundamentalism in some european nations.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI5WoXpmPiM


the new world also has its problems, like the christian fundamentalism in the US.

 

[ganjavih]

Why did Serbia collapse in the worse slaughter since WWII? Bosnian Serbs went from 43 to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims went from 26 to 44%.

Yeah, dem Serbs sure showed dem Muzlims good... serves 'em right for having all dem babies. I say we start killin' off da Chinese if any more come here...

 

[Dichotomy]

...you really do illustrate my point. Rather than adding to the discussion, why do some people have to resort to name calling and snide remarks?
This is a very serious conversation because the fabric of this country is fundamentally changing, and if we can't have adult conversations about it now, we could very well end up like Belgium or Serbia.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually, taking ethnic issues too seriously is exactly why places ended up being Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

AoD

 

[cacruden]

Why did Serbia collapse in the worse slaughter since WWII? Bosnian Serbs went from 43 to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims went from 26 to 44%. In a democratic age, you can't buck demography, except through civil war.

I think the collapse was more due to the fact that Yugoslavia more of a post WW II creation stitching together several diverse ethnic "provinces" that never really got along with each other (including animosities caused by WW II Axis vs Allies alignments). This artificial state was held together by a strong authoritarian leader, and those communities never really resolved their animosities towards each other. Once the authoritarian "cap" was removed - all those unsettled historical animosities rose to the surface - as well as those that favoured holding the whole thing together at any cost. The war was ugly and barbaric, but those blood feuds seem to be mostly settled now - and each of those remaining countries now seem to have a common goal of joining the european community. It will take decades for the old animosities to fade, but the future is now looking brighter (for those that are not dead of course).

 

[Whoaccio]

One smart thing Canada did is to accept a relatively well balanced portfolio of immigrants. By which I mean that we don't have an overwhelming minority group. Three cases to consider, Canada, Europe and USA.

In the USA immigration was (historically) composed of African immigrants. Currently they make up 15% of the US population. Increasingly they are being overshadowed by Latino-Americans, and I would expect this to cause issues in the future. There was always a sense of "us vs. them" when describing white/black relations though. There were always clear sides.

Likewise, in Europe, immigrants are from primarily Muslim areas. Just like in the USA, there is a undeniably "us vs. them" mindset in most European countries today. In a rather disturbing anecdote, when I was on exchange in Paris my host family described how if they saw a pure French person using a cross walk they would take their foot of the gas and apply the brake, If they saw a N. African crossing, they would just take their foot off the gas. Despite overall low to medium levels of immigration, that continent has some serious issues with integration.

Canada, though, is sitting relatively pretty. There was that Toronto terrorist thing a few years back, but I don't think there has been anything really contentious since the Christie Pitts riots way back when. We have one of the highest levels of immigration, yet few of the problems. In part, I think it is because we don't really have one ethnicity that is large enough to take a dominant role in society.

 

[cacruden]

One smart thing Canada did is to accept a relatively well balanced portfolio of immigrants. By which I mean that we don't have an overwhelming minority group. Three cases to consider, Canada, Europe and USA.

In the USA immigration was (historically) composed of African immigrants. Currently they make up 15% of the US population. Increasingly they are being overshadowed by Latino-Americans, and I would expect this to cause issues in the future. There was always a sense of "us vs. them" when describing white/black relations though. There were always clear sides.

Likewise, in Europe, immigrants are from primarily Muslim areas. Just like in the USA, there is a undeniably "us vs. them" mindset in most European countries today. In a rather disturbing anecdote, when I was on exchange in Paris my host family described how if they saw a pure French person using a cross walk they would take their foot of the gas and apply the brake, If they saw a N. African crossing, they would just take their foot off the gas. Despite overall low to medium levels of immigration, that continent has some serious issues with integration.

Canada, though, is sitting relatively pretty. There was that Toronto terrorist thing a few years back, but I don't think there has been anything really contentious since the Christie Pitts riots way back when. We have one of the highest levels of immigration, yet few of the problems. In part, I think it is because we don't really have one ethnicity that is large enough to take a dominant role in society.

Our immigration was not necessarily "balanced" -- I would best describe it as "waves". We had a large influx of immigrants from HK during the leadup to the handover, then the immigration from HK dropped. Immigration from mainland China rose after HK went down, and I believe it is decreasing again. We had relatively large migrations from Eastern Europe, but as they integrate more into Europe you will like see that fall back. We have had some relatively large immigration waves from India as well. Toronto has a large Caribbean contingent as well.... (but we almost ended up with parts of the Carribean 60 years ago - so they are more like extended family )