With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[Urban Shocker]

Indeed. The kids born here are complete hosers from the moment they're hatched.

I don't see what all the fuss is about if their parents, born overseas, want to associate with people from the old country in shared neighbourhoods of shared cultural interests.

And if Granny sits down in the basement all day long, mumbling to herself in some unfathomable foreign tongue while she knits socks, is the world any the worse off for it, really?

 

[Tewder]

The fact that people made the choice to go to the US or Canada does not negate the point that the assimilation of the melting pot is simply to force them to change to satisfy the wants of the majority.

Indeed it does. If there is a 'choice' involved then there is no 'forcing', capiche?

In a Langston Hughes-'I too sing America'-way the intention/objective of the melting pot is not about forcing conformity - who would ever characterize the spirit of America as conformist? - it is about embracing diversity into the fold of what America is. Though the notion is corrupted at times, this is the noblest view of what the American soup is: the immigrant gains strength and community through what America offers, and America in turn gains strength from the diversity of the newcomer.

Convenient metonyms aside, Canada's "multi-culturalism" is functionally identical to the USA's "melting pot". People make a big deal out of what each system encourages and discourages, but in practice there is no difference. An immigrant moving to San Fancisco or Boston will not be "assimilated" any more forcefully or thoroughly than an immigrant moving to Toronto or Vancouver. Quite frankly, i don't even understand what multi-culturalism is. I have never seen it in action.

Conceptually the two ideologies are very different, as has already been discussed here. Politically and administratively they also both function very differently in terms of where tax dollars are directed, into what types of programs and services etc. As for any differing experience of the immigrant, well who's really to say? Your anecdotes vs mine, I guess.

There is a difference. I don't see a Canadian equivalent of Lou Dobb's screaming on TV every night how immigrants are destroying the nation.

I don't see White Pride groups openly existing in Canada, to the point they actually have rallys. I have yet to see skin heads openly displaying hate here.

Those would be fairly narrow-minded and specific indictments of the melting-pot. That said, Diversity is not always pretty. The excesses of thought-police political correctness are not very pretty either, though.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I don't see what all the fuss is about if their parents, born overseas, want to associate with people from the old country in shared neighbourhoods of shared cultural interests.

i bet some natives probably said the same thing a couple of hundred years ago.

of course, if it wasn't for the english, we wouldn't have pride parades today.

 

[theowne]

One should observe a volleyball match at the downtown Y to see where we are headed: Asians on one side, South Americans on the other, all hurling insults at each other.

You're anecdotes are cool and frightening and all, but I went to a multi-ethnic high school and lived in a similar area and never saw any of this behavior. Unless you meant "insults" as in generic insults rather than racial ones, because if that was what you meant and found strange, I suggest you go out and visit more sporting events.

 

[Urban Shocker]

The first generation born here to new immigrants will become fine Canadian hosers when they grow up, just as the children of every other wave of immigrants have. The more barriers to the integration of immigrants we remove the better, and that includes granting them the freedom to maintain their own culture. Those born here can learn from immigrant communities, just as immigrants can learn from those born here, and this cross-cultural exchange adds to the culture as a whole. Toronto has a strong identity in the arts as a result of such cross-cultural ties and the unique expressions they set free. There is nothing to be afraid of in opening up to new influences - without them cultures atrophy.

 

[theowne]

Yeah, but how much cross-cultural exchange will occur if immigrants continue to be fragmented as they are starting to be now?

 

[adma]

Funny that you would invoke the Darwin clause: doesn't it strike you that what is happening in the West right now runs contrary to natural selection? What other culture or group has ever subverted its own interests for those of others? Would one lion pride let another one simply move in and take over? Or would they put up a fight?
If we treat other cultures as immutable, but our own is evolving, it begs the question that, ultimately, who will assimilate who?

By being overly preoccupied with this issue, you're proving yourself--personally--on the wrong side of Darwin.

 

[Whoaccio]

Conceptually the two ideologies are very different, as has already been discussed here. Politically and administratively they also both function very differently in terms of where tax dollars are directed, into what types of programs and services etc. As for any differing experience of the immigrant, well who's really to say? Your anecdotes vs mine, I guess

Conceptually, they are both so vague and unimportant that comparison is idiotic. Outside of a few limericks, there is literally no difference between how the two systems function. Both accept that cultural choices are to be left to the individual (so long as other's rights aren't infringed) and that the state is not in the business of forcing conformity. The only difference is in wording. Canadian multi-culturalism stresses the right of individuals to choose their lifestyle while the American "fruit-pot", or whatever metonym, stresses the inability of the state to force conformity. They are identical

Politically, the USA and Canada are once again virtually identical. The one major difference being Canada is more urbanized. The five main Canadian cities comprise over half of our population. The five main US cities comprise maybe 6-7 percent of the population. An urbanite in Canada will have a life so similar to an urbanite in the USA that pretending there is a difference is ludicrous.

If I wanted to be really cutting, I could point out that new immigrants into the USA have a far longer period of economic "assimilation" and are far more likely to resort to criminality. All around, new immigrants to the USA have almost uniquely worse socio economic markers. I'm not blaming it on one meaningless buzzword like "melting pot" or anything, but if you are going to pretend as though there is some gorge in between Canadian and American policies, I would rather be on the Canadian side.

 

[adma]

And if one has to lament changes since Vancouver school demographics in 1969, look at it this way--it took more than multiculturalism to trigger the decomposition of the North American monoculture. Consider, f'rinstance, how the One Nation Under A Top 40 Playlist (and a few FM weirdos around the edges) high-school-dance ethos of c1969 decomposed to a disco vs rock vs punk/new wave vs whatever cliqueish tribalism a decade later.

And as far as other regrettable trends go--well, think of how rare it is for kids to walk to school these days...

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps the issue that we should consider is that of dual citizenship.

During the summer of 2006, my office provided support to Operation Lion, the non-combatant evacuation operations of Lebanese Canadians. We found it incredibly overwhelming that the number of refugees kept climbing by the hour. A tiny percentage of these people had travelled to Lebanon as Canadians (ie entered on a Canadian passport), and only about 1-2% of the evacuees had actually registered with the Canadian embassy, yet all of a sudden, all of them felt compelled to demand immediate assistance from the Government of Canada.

And after all that work, most promptly returned to Lebanon within a few months. Some had no known family ties in Canada.

Having participated in this experience, I truly feel that Canada was taken for a ride by these people. We risked life and limb to get these guys out. We had military personnel conducting armed escorts out of Hezbollah strongholds (and you have to wonder how some of these folks had enough connections to live in those areas) and onto secured vessels. And the air force expended millions to airlift these folks from Cyprus and Turkey back to Canada.

All for people, who probably have very little connection to Canada beyond that passport. Perhaps its time to insist that immigrants cut the cord to ye olde country. It's fine to bring your culture and food, but I don't think you should use our country as a refuge of convenience.

 

[Whoaccio]

kEiThZ -

Within the specific case of the Lebanon conflict, and this is the most commonly used example, I think there is no question that Canada got taken for a ride. My main concern is that this one small case is used to justify axing dual citizenship. The bulk of dual-citizens hold citizenship either with the USA or a Euro-zone country. I myself hold a U.K. passport. So too do a great deal of Canada's proffesional class. Banning dual citizenship would screw a great deal of Canadians.

We would be better off just telling expats we wont ferry them out of war zones if they don't sign in and out with an embassy on a frequent basis.

 

[lordmandeep]

In my lily white nabe, many visible minority descendants of immigrants are seeking/have bought homes. They, as I, have no feelings or affinity for some faraway land.

Really, does it really hurt if I call my relatives back in India from time to time and visit them every 5-10 years??? Does that make me less Canadian or something.

Its a rather silly thing to be proud off, as one can easily be a Canadian and stay in touch with his family's roots.

Usually after a few generations, the ties back to the "homeland" diminish, as more of the immediate family comes to Canada or is born and raised in Canada. Also as generations pass, your old relatives back in the "homeland" start to die off.

 

[theowne]

All around, new immigrants to the USA have almost uniquely worse socio economic markers.

The census doesn't make it seem so. The U.S. census showed immigrants, whether from Africa Europe or Asia all have socioeconmic indicators such as education and income, usually higher than the general public. Certain immigrants, like Indians and Japanese, were extraordinarily higher.

 

[lordmandeep]

it all depends...

In the Sun Belt everyone looks rich as everything is super sized..

 

[theowne]

it all depends...

In the Sun Belt everyone looks rich as everything is super sized..

But this was relative to the general population of America, not compared to Canada.