kettal
Banned
I'll sit in the nearest Tim Hortons, drink my hot chocolate, and watch the GPS map on my cell phone so I know when the next LRT will arrive.
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Whose vision of transit in Toronto do you support?
- Thread starter Dan416
- Start date
I'll sit in the nearest Tim Hortons, drink my hot chocolate, and watch the GPS map on my cell phone so I know when the next LRT will arrive.
...And then hope for a red light to come soon so you can cross 3 lanes of traffic to get to the stop. And if the avenuization goes as planned, it'll be a Starbucks, not a Tim Hortons.
Call me old fashioned, but I prefer waiting in an at least semi-climate controlled space than on a slab on concrete in the middle of a 6-8 lane avenue.
Northern Magus
Active Member
Oh dear, politics really isn't your forte, is it?
Actually it's not "alledged", it's a fact. Every pollster grapples with this because their careers depend on accuracy and validity. Any poll is only as useful as its sample methodology.
I agree that these would be more thoughtful questions but the reality is that they're disingenuous. What you're really looking for is confirmation of support for your group, which you're not really getting. Even Daniel is amazed by this.
But more importantly, even keithz confirmed that your group and these polls really aren't about indulging in escapist fantasy. They're about creating conditions that will actually kill significant in-progress transit expansion. So man up and be honest about it. Ask a clear, honest, and unequivocal question such as "do you agree that all transit city lines should be killed after the 2010 municipal election, any work done on them abandoned or undone, all unspent money returned, all jobs to be created put on hold, and that the city and province should not embark on any major projects unless and until they take the form of subways?"
There's a saying: don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yet that's precisely what your group appears to be doing ... 3 years too late.
Always the straw men, huh? For the record, I seem to see both Tims and Starbucks throughout the subway facilitated avenuizations of Bloor and Yonge streets.
Not in the underground section of the Eglinton LRT.
kettal
Banned
I guess it will be one of those magical subway stations, which everybody can walk to without having to cross any streets to get there.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
That may be true, but you wouldn't have to quickly have to cross the street either, seeing's how you don't have to stay in a warm coffee shop as you wait for a LRT, since you can just sit in a warm subway station left.
Not to mention, there are plenty of subways that have exits on multiple parts of the road, on pretty much all 4 sides on the downtown stations. On Eglinton with Richview, the stations will be on the same side of the road as all the new developments that could happen. But does it really matter? That's kinda a dumb argument.
kEiThZ
Superstar
We'll see how many Coffee shops there are between Progress and Morningside. Please take a drive out on Sheppard past McCowan this weekend, to understand how avenuization will work along here.
Like we've said before, despite the plan we put out (remember the goal was to show the opportunity cost of Transit City's $15 billion) we're flexible on some routes. Personally, I could see Eglinton as a LRT. At least that's already a real 'avenue' or has potential in its undeveloped spaces. Sheppard East past Agincourt? No way. And I live there and I don't think it's possible....unless the city wants to re-zone and raze all the single family homes with their backyards towards Sheppard.
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kettal
Banned
Unless you're advocating for subway stations between Progress & Morningside, this post is pointless. Waiting outside for an LRT in winter is no worse than waiting for a bus.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
yeah...waiting for an LRT would be like currently waiting for a bus (i.e. crappy 132 Milner) where there is no bus shelter
kEiThZ
Superstar
Worse actually. They'll be reducing frequencies in a lot of places as they consolidate several buses into one LRT and increase headways.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The frequency is supposed to be the same as the HRT subway. 5-6 minutes in non-rush hour.
Since we're talking about visions and not reality, my vision of housing in Toronto is for everyone to live in their own Casa Loma.
Rainforest
Senior Member
^ I don't want to live in Casa Loma. The heating bills would bankrupt me in no time 
Rainforest
Senior Member
It does not work like this.
I am glad they (the SOS) finalized their plan, but regard that plan as a prompt for the City Hall / TTC / Metrolinx to rethink parts of TC. No politician will take responsibility for cancelling all TC projects that are already in the pipeline.
Some sensible modifications of TC are possible nevetherless. IMO, that would be moving the subway / LRT transfer point on Sheppard further east (to Kennedy), and replacing Eglinton LRT with a subway that runs from Yonge to Pearson.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Rainforest,
Well put. This is what people don't understand. I believe SOS was right to present a plan that was the opposite of Transit City. Not because we don't believe in compromise, but because any compromise has to have the best elements of both plans. Had we started with a plan full of compromises, we would have simply ended with Transit City. In reality, we all fully expect that if we are successful all we'll get is compromises. That's not a bad thing.
Personally, there are several I would support. Not speaking for SOS, but I would support cutting Sheppard short at Agincourt and building the SELRT and an LRT on Progress instead. I would support an Eglinton LRT, if it allowed for Eglinton to be completed from one end to the next in one phase. I would not compromise on a BD extension to STC. And I don't support the Morningside LRT. I'd rather get something on Ellesmere which could connect STC, the hospital, UTSC and Durham Region. LRT or BRT does not matter.
So there are compromises to make and that can be made. However, presenting a compromised vision to begin with is absolutely useless if you are trying to effect change.
Well put. This is what people don't understand. I believe SOS was right to present a plan that was the opposite of Transit City. Not because we don't believe in compromise, but because any compromise has to have the best elements of both plans. Had we started with a plan full of compromises, we would have simply ended with Transit City. In reality, we all fully expect that if we are successful all we'll get is compromises. That's not a bad thing.
Personally, there are several I would support. Not speaking for SOS, but I would support cutting Sheppard short at Agincourt and building the SELRT and an LRT on Progress instead. I would support an Eglinton LRT, if it allowed for Eglinton to be completed from one end to the next in one phase. I would not compromise on a BD extension to STC. And I don't support the Morningside LRT. I'd rather get something on Ellesmere which could connect STC, the hospital, UTSC and Durham Region. LRT or BRT does not matter.
So there are compromises to make and that can be made. However, presenting a compromised vision to begin with is absolutely useless if you are trying to effect change.
leopetr
Active Member
You are an advocate for BRT and pre-BRT. How can you honestly use this argument and then turn around and argue in favour of BRT? Are BRT shelters somehow immune to -10 degree temperatures?
Considering that the LRT routes are replacing bus routes that often don't even have shelters, yes, waiting in a shelter is an improvement. Shelters on Spadina are quite nice and I fully expect Transit City shelters to be wider, deeper, and better at shielding from extremes of weather.
The core of Eglinton LRT is a subway from Keele to Leslie. This doesn't apply as an argument against it.
Fresh Start
Banned
Obviously my comment was in referrence to corridors where a HRT metro subway is a competitve and viable alternative to road-median LRT trams (Eglinton crosstown, Sheppard East). Not speaking for the group, but the major application of BRT would apply to the Finch Hydro Corridor, railroad/highway enbankment lands where applicable, and the median of Highway 27. These locations command a certain level of public safety and segregated pedestrian crossings/access; thus the stations would be heated enclosures (same like you see at GO Train stations) most likely with seating and prepaid boarding i.e. turnstiles. Also buses can run at significant faster speeds/shorter headways than LRT (Transit City is scheduled for every 5 mins or 12 trips per hour vs. up to 90 second headways possibly during rush hour on BRT routes or 40 trips per hour). This means less time overall spent at a shelter awaiting one's connecting trip service.
As an aside, you find those overcrowded i.e. dangerous, metre-wide platforms down the median of Spadina to be safe? Also since 512 St Clair is prototypical of the kind of shelters we should come to expect of Transit City, I can forsee a lot of issues and public complaints ahead as none of those shelters are protected against the elements nor with the TTC's perchant to cost cuts do I expect them to start. Complete grade-separation for a route like Eglinton for instance, not just a measly 11 kilometres out of 33, would at least procure safe pedestrian access particularly during rush rour and late evening when speeding motorists and poor visibility poses serious threat to public safety; and would give folks awaiting their train at least the most basic protections (a support column to hide behind as a wind-breaker or an overhanging platfrom/station ceiling to sheild one from rain/hail, for instance).