News   Apr 20, 2026
 236     0 
News   Apr 20, 2026
 785     1 
News   Apr 20, 2026
 422     2 

Who will be the next Liberal leader?

"When Erik the Red started a colony in Greenland in the year 982, climate and ice sheet size were probably not very different from today. It is often forgotten that this region in south-west Greenland (near K’agssiarssuk) is lush and green also today and supports agriculture and sheep farming. The oxygen isotope record from the Dye3 ice core, the closest core to the Viking settlement, suggests the warmest temperatures there of the past several thousand years were reached in the 20th Century. This does not prove anything about global warming (it is just a single point, the story at Greenland's summit is already different), but it is interesting with respect to the Viking settlement."
 
It has nothing to do with global warming, but still is an interesting quote (though incomplete). It was made by Mark Bahner on the 10th of December, 2004 on the blog site "Real Climate."

Of course the Vikings abandoned the colony when it became too cold due to variability in climate.


www.sciencemag.org/cgi/co.../1115356v1


I suppose that this does nothing to prove anything about global warming, either.

But it is interesting.
 
Actually the comment was by Stefan Rahmstorf who is a researcher at the "Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research" and a prof at Potsdam University. Good Google skills, anyway.

Thanks for pointing out the thickening Greenland ice sheet. Interior ice sheet growth is a factor of how much precipitation the glacier recieves and not temperature (no matter how much the earth warms up water will still freeze at 0C) and with warmer air and water temperatures we would see greater evaporation and therefore greater precipitation. Therefore, a thickening central area of an ice sheet and thinning edges is exactly what we would expect to see under a global warming scenario just as described in that study you posted. But you're quite right that single cases and simple anecdotes prove nothing about a global question.

Anyway, I wandered into this thread and I think I'll wander right on out again. This is a big topic with some serious science involved so I'll leave it to the experts and discussion forums dedicated to this topic. I think Real Climate (mentioned above) is a good place to start, written by climatologists and physicists from NASA, Penn State, NOAA, U Mass, and a crapload of other research institutions.
 
^Just as oceans warm they lose the capacity to store C02, enabling more to reside in the atmosphere. Since most atmospheric C02 is of natural origin, what we are possibly seeing is a slight build up of C02 from overwhelmingly natural sources along with a small amount from human origins. It takes a significant heat source to warm the oceans - such as the sun.

Oddly enough, we were not discussing if the warming since 1880 was real or not. We were discussing possible sources.

I would agree with you about single anecdotes. Sometimes they are useful for illustrations, but rarely serve as a comprehensive conclusion. However, there is equal trouble with global averages and over-arching statements as well. Much of the global warming debate tends to revolve around such things.

Interestingly, Micheal Mann, one of the contributors to RealClimate, is under pressure to reveal his data concerning temperature reconstructions for the last 1,000 years, data that suggests a "hockey stick" graph of contemporary warming. Apparently these data don't match other reconstructions that point to a very warm Medieval period.

There is some serious science involved in this issue, with many on-going research programs under way. This suggests that many answers are still forthcoming, with new questions waiting to be asked.

As for the experts, since environmental policy is the purview of the politicians and public servants, such policy tends to affect everyone. I see no reason for individuals to avoid the topic because it is scientific in nature. Although at this time, this thread has morphed into something other than one about who will be the next Liberal leader.



Apparently Justin Trudeau wants to run for a seat. Anyone want to speculate on whether he aspires to be leader one day? I'd say it'll be a hot day in hell when...

never mind.
 
People don't like change. Even if there was proof that without the presence of humans the planet would warm to an average 50'C by 2100 and it was proven that such temperature increases were completely natural I think we would still have people trying to figure out how to combat global warming. People don't like the idea of an ice free Arctic Ocean, moving cities away from the coast, etc. It is difficult to know how much man made GHGs play a part in this... a small change in a ballast tank can mean the difference from a submarine going up or going down... a small change in GHGs might be all that is needed to trigger a cascade of events that once set in motion can not be reversed by removing the initiator. Putting a lit match into a pile of papers under wood starts a fire but a knee jerk reaction to remove the match will not put it out. Maybe the only way to prevent global warming at this point is to block the sun... maybe this happened in the past due to a volcanic eruption or a meteor strike and those disasterous events are the only reason the planet is cool enough to sustain our life today. Maybe we will need some catastrophe like a meteor strike, large volcanic eruption, or man made pollution (nuclear winter, some smoke that reflects the suns rays, etc).

Personally I think the least we can do is to try and reduce the human impact on the environment as much as possible. Doing so might have no impact at all but the research will need to figure out what more could be done. In some places where the pollution is much dirtier curbing pollution and GHGs would actually increase global warming. If the plan was to trigger a nuclear winter at this point with the research where it is today I would agree that taking such a course of action before all the facts are in is foolish. However, lowering GHGs is a far cry from a 'drastic measure' and it could only be seen as a drastic measure by people on Wall Street. With all the challenges that have been faced over the years, lowering GHGs seems like an effort right up there with not watching TV... you might want to watch TV but it is hardly the end of the world to do without. Some make it into a mountain when it is really a molehill... compared to the task of the World Wars, the depression, normal hardships of life 200 years ago, etc... it doesn't seem like much effort at all. All that is required is the will power to do it.
 
Enviro,

While it's true that some people don't like change; others accept change as part of the course of life. Even if we could, would we settle on the climate as it was 120 years ago as being an ideal period to return to simply because it is the date that so often comes up as a time that preceeds the warming trend of the contemporary era? It is a given that the North American climate was probably much cooler at that time. Does that somehow suggest the existence of a more "natural" or ideal climate? According to whom, and by what measure?

But then again, what makes 120 years ago so special? It is just an arbitrary date in time from which to mark off a warming trend. Go back further in time and there is pattern of constant shifts and changes in climate. Variation, or change, is not the exception; it is the norm - regardless of the influence of GHG's originating from human activity or not.

As for a "cascade of events" caused by a small change in GHG's, remember that the greatest output of GHG's originates in nature. The human contribution is very small in comparison. To isolate just that small portion against a large backdrop of GHG emissions originating from the rest of the environment appears to be splitting hairs. The natural carbon cycle is not an absolute constant. There is variability that can match human outputs of GHG's in terms of quantity. Along with that, there are other elements in the mix that bring change to climate, many of which human beings have little or no control over. Any of those could operate far more effectively as the trigger you are concerned about because they already have done so in the past, and there would be nothing that we could do.

People may not like the idea of an ice-free arctic, but it remains to be seen whether they will ever see one. They may not like moving cities away from coasts (because of of worries over worse hurricanes - a question still open to debate), but even now there are cities built in what are well-established paths of seasonal hurricanes. They can and do get hit by those hurricanes quite frequently.

I wasn't aware anyone was considering triggering a nuclear winter to stop global warming. If there is such an idea floating around, it's got to be among the dumbest ever floated. As for blocking out the sun, or dumping huge amounts of iron in the ocean in some dubious effort to cool the planet, these too are anthropocentric environmental manipulations. Such efforts ought to be a moral conondrum for environmentalists. Why would one manipulation be better than another if the ends are pursued only to suit human desires of what the environment ought to be like?

As for mountains out of molehills, I think it is safe to say that you are over-simplifying the issue. Are there sources of energy beyond oil and gas? Sure, but they will have to be improved on before they can replace oil and gas effectively. Infrastructure may have to established and new processes and technologies will have to be put into place. I don't think I'm telling you anything new by pointing out that numerous small changes can be just as beneficial as extremely large changes. With respect to oil and natural gas, there is a simple fact that availability of the cheapest sources appears to have peaked. New sources will probably be more costly and more risky to acquire. To mitigate this cost, energy use will have to become more efficient in the relative short term. In the long term, oil and gas will have to be replaced with other sources of energy. Heat and light still offer up two very large potentials for future energy needs, and are quite plentiful. There pursuit and improvement are simply overshadowed by the cheapness of oil - for now.
 
It is difficult to know how much man made GHGs play a part in this... a small change in a ballast tank can mean the difference from a submarine going up or going down... a small change in GHGs might be all that is needed to trigger a cascade of events that once set in motion can not be reversed by removing the initiator.

Exactly...that's why citing the 0.035% concentration (which is constantly increasing) in the atmosphere doesn't really mean all too much.


Personally I think the least we can do is to try and reduce the human impact on the environment as much as possible. Doing so might have no impact at all but the research will need to figure out what more could be done. In some places where the pollution is much dirtier curbing pollution and GHGs would actually increase global warming. If the plan was to trigger a nuclear winter at this point with the research where it is today I would agree that taking such a course of action before all the facts are in is foolish. However, lowering GHGs is a far cry from a 'drastic measure' and it could only be seen as a drastic measure by people on Wall Street. With all the challenges that have been faced over the years, lowering GHGs seems like an effort right up there with not watching TV... you might want to watch TV but it is hardly the end of the world to do without. Some make it into a mountain when it is really a molehill... compared to the task of the World Wars, the depression, normal hardships of life 200 years ago, etc... it doesn't seem like much effort at all. All that is required is the will power to do it.

Well said.
 
Gee SD, what if the world is not coming to an end? What are we going to do?
 
Gee Bizorky, what if human actions are damaging the environment but we're too shortsighted to care? What are we going to do?
 
If you look back in millions of year into Earth's history you will see that Earth's current temperatures and CO2 levels are much higher now than they have ever peaked in the past. Global warming is not a theory, it is science; scientists know exactly how it works and they know that this global warming period is a lot different from the past periods of global warming. It is sad that so people still live in denial of this and there nothing that can change their minds.
Exactly. The fact is the climate is changing and it's mainly due to human activity. The debate, at least among those who actually study the climate, is over. Arguments like "it's really complex" or "the climate changes naturally" don't change that. This thread is like arguing with someone who insists that the sky is green.
 
Global warming is not a theory, it is science; scientists know exactly how it works and they know that this global warming period is a lot different from the past periods of global warming. It is sad that so people still live in denial of this and there nothing that can change their minds.

Actually, scientists do not know "exactly how it works." Such a statement illustrates a lack of understanding concerning the field of climatology. If those involved knew "exactly how it works" then why would they continue bothering to study the subject? Like all scientific research programs, there is a body of knowledge which is being built up through ongoing research activities. Even for those climatologists who view human activity as a factor in climate change, there is debate over how much of a factor - and even how human activity affects climate. Beyond the individual research efforts focussing on the numerous factors related to climate, the IPCC - and its documents so much at the centre of this issue - states levels of uncertainty with regards to the science.


The debate, at least among those who actually study the climate, is over. Arguments like "it's really complex" or "the climate changes naturally" don't change that. This thread is like arguing with someone who insists that the sky is green.

Contrary to your opinion, the debate among those who study climate is not over. You would be surprised at how many gaps in knowledge exist with respect to understanding the complexity of climate. It's only over for those who "believe" that climate change is caused only by GHG's originating from human activity. There is still debate about this assertion for many reasons. As for it being complex, it is a complex issue, whether you like it or not; and climate does - and has - changed naturally, whether you like it or not.


Gee Bizorky, what if human actions are damaging the environment but we're too shortsighted to care? What are we going to do?

A rather contradictory question, would you not say?
 
are you aware that over 900 papers have been written and not one says global warming is not happing. also the ice in the artic and the antartic has samples of the atmosphere dating back over 500,000 years. everyone agrees that this is happining.
also theres a saying I quite like:

"We don't inherit this earth from our ancesters, we borrow it from our children"

think about that.
 
^I think what you are trying to say (but without complete success) is that there are 900 papers (or so you say) that state that there is a warming trend in the climate.

I think you should read some of those papers as many do not speak of sampling atmosphere, but present evidence of what the atmosphere was like in terms of its temperature and make-up. They are proxies for actual measures, which you can't do today because the past is in the past.

Are you aware that I have never disputed that there has been a warming trend since 1880? That said, nor have I disputed a cooling trend from the late 1930's to the late 1970's.

Are you aware that not everyone agrees that this is happening? You may want to read beyond the 900 papers that you suggest having some peripheral knowledge of.

Are you aware that there are those who recognize that climate changes constantly? Are you aware that there are many people who suggest alternate reasons for the present warming trend? Are you aware that there are many scientists who think it is a product of a combination of sources, including those beyond human action or control?

Are you aware that you should read earlier posts if you want to know what people have actually stated?

Think about that...


and spare me your moralizing.
 
so the warming trend started in 1880? when was the industrial revloution?
 

Back
Top