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Who will be the next Liberal leader?

I actually recommend that link I posted. It has all kinds of interesting facts.

Carbon dioxide emissions from agricultural soils have been declining for many years and are expected to move from being a net source to a net sink for atmospheric carbon within the next few years. This shift has been facilitated by the adoption of best management practices such as no-till seeding, reductions in summer fallow, increased cultivation of forage crops and reduced cultivation of marginal crop lands

A scientifically credible and cost-effective way of measuring, monitoring and verifying carbon changes in soils is in development. Currently, world scientists can combine data on soil carbon, landscape and climate to create models that estimate the carbon change related to farm management practices, with a fair degree of accuracy.

from a report on that site: Measuring Soil Carbon Stocks

Apparently they have developed a robust model for projecting and measuring carbon levels in soil. As far as determining whether or not a particular farmer deserves to be paid for sequestering CO_2 under the scheme, it could be measured. Taking some random samples from fields before and after could be used to estimate (with a high degree of accuracy) the change in carbon content for the period. Such an audit would not be expensive or particularly complex...

I performed such a test in my grade 10 science class. Burn some soil over a bunsen burner, and measure the change in mass. That change is the carbon content.
 
afransen, here is a more complete quote:

Agriculture is a net contributor to climate change through the emission of greenhouse gases (GHGs).

By current calculation methods, primary agriculture is responsible for about 10% of Canada's greenhouse gases, not including transportation, input costs or agri-food processing. Primary agriculture in Canada accounts for 61%, 38%, and less than 1% of Canada`s total emissions of nitrous oxide (N2O), methane (CH4), and carbon dioxide (CO2), respectively.

There is more than one GHG released by human activity. This statistic does not include forestry activity.

Well, unfortunately it is rather difficult to 'prove' statistically that GHG have a significant warming effect on the earth, especially since we don't have more than one planet so that we may do blocking to avoid confounding of the explanatory variates. We can only infer a causal relationship (and that is as good as we will EVER get)

Following that reasoning, why should other significant causes be left out?


Well, unfortunately it is rather difficult to 'prove' statistically that GHG have a significant warming effect on the earth

On the other hand, the changes in climate we are facing will and already do have significant repurcussions for humanity in terms of suffering, famine, and economic loss. Given the potential downside, I'm willing to gamble that GHG does cause climate change by endeavouring to have the use of fossil fuels reduced.

So if it is difficult to prove that GHG's have a significant warming effect, then how can effective policies be created with respect to curtailing or trading them? If, as you point out, it is so difficult to prove these things, then how can predictions be arrived at that speak to what the earth will be like in 50 or 100 years? The margins of error provided in the "scenarios" (their word) of the IPCC are pretty significant. No one can actually claim to know what the global climate will be like in those time frames, or how it will affect people 50 or 100 years out. The climate has a long history of "doing its own thing" whether we like it or not.

Gambling that GHG's cause climate change sounds nice, even responsible, but policy based on such bets has its own set of potentially negative effects if poorly instituted, and for reasons based on poor or incomplete information.
 
I'm pleased to see Harper starting to control dangerous chemicals in consumer products and food. IMO, this is the greater immediate danger to Canadians.
 
Following that reasoning, why should other significant causes be left out?

I don't see your point. We don't have any control over solar activity...

So if it is difficult to prove that GHG's have a significant warming effect, then how can effective policies be created with respect to curtailing or trading them?

Easy. Tax the production of GHGs from fossil fuels. You're making something relatively easy sound difficult. By the way, it's not only hard, but downright impossible to 'prove' that GHGs cause climate change.

"If, as you point out, it is so difficult to prove these things, then how can predictions be arrived at that speak to what the earth will be like in 50 or 100 years?"

You make statistical models that take into account things like solar activity, CO_2 concentrations, etc. vs. global temperature. We have a fair amount of back data available to us. The models we create based on this data have some merit; they're not just guesses.

I'm not really sure what your agenda is. You just seem to be throwing nonsense arguments at me.

The climate has a long history of "doing its own thing" whether we like it or not.

The climate also has a long history of having fossilised carbon removed from it.

Gambling that GHG's cause climate change sounds nice, even responsible, but policy based on such bets has its own set of potentially negative effects if poorly instituted, and for reasons based on poor or incomplete information.

Enlighten me, please.
 
By the way,

There is more than one GHG released by human activity. This statistic does not include forestry activity.

My quote was sufficient. It wasn't misleading in any way. It states that primary agriculture accounts for 10% of GHG emissions in Canada. Methane from livestock is an issue, but I'm not as concerned about carbon being released from soil as from fossilised deposits. Besides, agriculture has already begun the process of replacing carbon released from soil through better soil management practices.



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www.ec.gc.ca/soer-ree/English/headlines/ind4.cfm

Source: Pollution Data Branch, Environment Canada.2 a. "Energy industries" refers to the electricity and petroleum industries. "Other" refers to Land-Use Change and Forestry (methane and nitrous oxide). Industrial emissions includes emissions from solvents and other product use

So, GHG emissions from forestry is at most 0.3% of Canada's emissions as of 2000.
 
I don't see your point. We don't have any control over solar activity...

That is my point.

Tax the production of GHGs from fossil fuels. You're making something relatively easy sound difficult. By the way, it's not only hard, but downright impossible to 'prove' that GHGs cause climate change.

If it's impossible to prove, then why tax them in the method you suggest?

You make statistical models that take into account things like solar activity, CO_2 concentrations, etc. vs. global temperature. We have a fair amount of back data available to us. The models we create based on this data have some merit; they're not just guesses

What data would that be? The averaged global temperature shows an increase from 1980 to now and that trend continues forever? Again, if you take a look at the 2006 IPCC they don't call the models "models." They call them "scenarios" because there is a recognition that the word suggest a degree of verification that can't be achieved because one can't predict the future.
 
If it's impossible to prove, then why tax them in the method you suggest?

Because we can be reasonably assured that increased atmosphere CO_2 and other GHG contribute to the warming of the atmosphere which in turn is a significant cause of climate change. The science makes sense and is widely agreed upon. It's a reasonable assumption.

Face it, as a society, we act on guesses all the time. We used to sentence men to their deaths because we were reasonably assured that they were guilty of the crimes of which they were accused. We remove drugs from the market because we are reasonably assured that they cause unwanted side-effects like heart disease or cancer. We invade countries because we are reasonably assured they possess weapons of mass destruction. Doctors treat patients because they are reasonably assured that they have made a correct diagnosis.

Sometimes we're right and sometimes we're wrong. The point is that if we were to wait until we had 'proof' to act on anything, we would never act.


What data would that be? The averaged global temperature shows an increase from 1980 to now and that trend continues forever? Again, if you take a look at the 2006 IPCC they don't call the models "models." They call them "scenarios" because there is a recognition that the word suggest a degree of verification that can't be achieved because one can't predict the future.

They're is nothing wrong with calling it a model. It is statistical terminology. All models are based upon simplifying assumptions. Deal with it...
 
^They are not calling it a model, they refer to their predictions as "scenarios" in order to distance themselves from the concept of a model.

There is no accurate measures of fluctuations in natural greenhouse gas production. It offers up no steady baseline to which one can guage human activity against.

Human contributions of GHG's are something along the line of 2% of all GHG emissions (the number varies slightly because there is simply no accurate method to measure by). That is just 2% of the standard GHG's mentioned here (carbon dioxide, methane, so on) and does NOT include water vapor, which is the single largest source of the so-called greenhouse effect in the atmosphere. Water vapor accounts for about 95% of that atmospheric greenhouse effect.

Face it, as a society, we act on guesses all the time. We used to sentence men to their deaths because we were reasonably assured that they were guilty of the crimes of which they were accused. We remove drugs from the market because we are reasonably assured that they cause unwanted side-effects like heart disease or cancer. We invade countries because we are reasonably assured they possess weapons of mass destruction. Doctors treat patients because they are reasonably assured that they have made a correct diagnosis.

If you feel comfortable developing global policies on the basis of guesswork, then that's what makes you feel comfortable, I suppose. I don't share that view. If you feel the need to make comparisons like you have done so above, then one can pretty much argue any position, don't you think? In almost all your cases you make reference to scenarios that cause death. Then again, carbon dioxide does not cause death in the quantities that are found in the atmosphere; it actually sustains photsynthesis. Why not make a case against oxygen? It's actually a far more toxic gas. Since C02 has a positive effect on plant life, why not pump out more C02 to improve green yield?

None of these are satisfying assertions from which to make policy.
 
Oh no, the statistics can't prove anything debate again as heard on Fox, CNN, and many other places.

- Why reduce CO2 emissions if it isn't proven that it will have an impact.
- Why not let all criminals go free if it can't be proven that they will reoffend.
- Why not guily until proven innocent.
- Why let an arab with old shoes, a religious text, and an alarm clock on the plane.
- Why not give up on a certain segment of the population because stats show they don't put forth any effort to fix the problem.
- Etc, etc, etc.

Maybe it makes sense sometimes to do things as just an attempt to fix a problem without even knowing whether or not it will be successful. Maybe doing anything and then changing plans when more information is available is all that can be done. Weather forcasting models get the weather wrong but it doesn't mean weather forcasts are pointless, it only means there is room for further study. Should weather forcasting be halted until models can more consistently get it right? I don't think so.
 
Exactly, Enviro.

Bizorky, maybe CO_2 doesn't cause death directly, but global warming sure does. Flooding, drought, extreme weather, etc. can and do cause death and human suffering.

Beyond that, why is death so special? Why is the avoidance of death the only justifiable reason to use confidence (in the statistical sense) to make decisions?

Is it wrong for a mutual fund to invest in some asset if it can't 'prove' it will perform, but can only be reasonably assured? No death involved here...

Honestly bizorky, I feel like I'm having a parliamentary debate with you. You have been assigned a position and you will argue it against reason.
 
Bizorky, maybe CO_2 doesn't cause death directly, but global warming sure does. Flooding, drought, extreme weather, etc. can and do cause death and human suffering.

Where does human-induced global warming cause these things today exactly? Can you be specific?

Are getting the popularized doom and gloom scenarios confused with today?

All climate on earth is due to the sun. Any slight variation in the sun's energy output has an immense impact on this planet. The primary cause of the greenhouse effect in the atmosphere of the planet is due to water vapor, not carbon dioxide, or methane. Changes to solar output, cosmic rays, geological change, gradual and continuous alterations to local water, carbon and other environmental cycles bring constant variability to climate. In other words, there is a continuous history of climate change on earth over billions of years (all without the help with humans). In many instances of warming there is an increase in carbon dioxide that follows the rise in temperature - in other words it appears as an effect and not a cause.

Don't you think that the burden of proof is upon those who suggest that it is only anthropogenic GHG's that are the cause of a 0.6 C degree increase over the last 120 years? This type of claim must first be distinguished as being significantly different in a substantial way from past climate change events. In comparison to the ongoing solar, water and carbon cycles, the human contribution is tiny.

Honestly bizorky, I feel like I'm having a parliamentary debate with you. You have been assigned a position and you will argue it against reason.

How is what I am saying "against reason?" So you are having a debate? Did you expect that you could take your argument, elevate it to a position of belief, and then claim others are unreasonable because they disagree with you? It is the height of hubris to pretend to construct or promote policy solely on the basis of guesses and prejudices. Yet that is what you are suggesting ought to happen.

Speaking of questionable reasoning:

Beyond that, why is death so special? Why is the avoidance of death the only justifiable reason to use confidence (in the statistical sense) to make decisions?

Is it wrong for a mutual fund to invest in some asset if it can't 'prove' it will perform, but can only be reasonably assured? No death involved here...
.
^The above are false issue devices.



news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/scien...236482.stm

www.cnsnews.com/Culture/a...1202a.html

sciencepolicy.colorado.ed...rter_.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...w_10122006

www.agu.org/pubs/crossref...5539.shtml

www.mpg.de/english/illust...e20040802/
 
From one of the articles you posted...

The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet

What you claim to have been arguing is not what you have been arguing. You've not been arguing that human activity is inconsequential in global warming, but rather things like how excluding agriculture and forestry in carbon trading schemes renders the whole exercise meaningless.

Are you settled on what you want to disagree with?
 
bizorky, are you actually claiming that human GHG emissions aren't causing global warming? The scientific consensus is that most of the recent global warming has been caused by humans. Pretty much all the research done on the topic contributes to that consensus. What else do you expect?
 
Meaningless? No. Why would I bring it up if it were meaningless?

The quotes from the IPCC come from the executive summary for policy makers. That portion is a political document for policy makers, not a scientific document. The science is often tentative in nature and the conclusions rarely ever state anything as being 100% proof. That is what the policy makers and politicians pretend to do afterwards. Having worked in policy development I understand the psychology behind this. One does not attempt policy change without accepting a set of presuppositions upon which to found one's actions. But these presuppositions are always limited in scope. They are meant to do something and not everything. So one rarely takes a global view on the outset.

The problem with the scenario building and generating policy on global warming is that it pretends to take a global view based on a limited set of presuppositions concerning origins. That will make for bad policy, in my opinion.

Scientists, too, are motivated by politics, personal concerns, worries and the like. There is nothing wrong with that so long as the debate does not sink to making speculative predicitions about future outcomes or unfounded claims. That is what the IPCC does as a document. From the 1990's to the most recent 2006 publication, the "predicitions" for future climate have slipped from being attempts at "modeling" based on extrapolations founded on a limited set of data, to "scenarios" that are presented as a means of providing limited illustrations of what could possibly happen in the most worst case situation. Climate is not a simple thing, nor is it an average thing. Nor do there exist robust models that can tell us what the world will look like in 100 years with any clear details.

The result of making dire predicitions to motivate social change is that what is reported on frequently in the press, what makes the headlines, what works people up, are the worst case "scenarios." The "worst case scenarios" presented in the IPCC are just that, the most extreme in terms of picturing what the future may possibly look like. But let me repeat this for you, it is an extreme picture, not to be read as being the most likely! That fact is actually mentioned in the IPCC report, so it is not a statement if imminent reality. Hence the reason why this research field remains active.

Neverthelesshese extreme scenarios have now become a form of public belief - now that they have repeated enough times. That is nothing new.

As for my claims, as I pointed out and you did not understand, I am suggesting that the debate is far from over. The evidence supporting only anthropogenic causes is incorrect: there are natural causes at work, as well, like the sun. The full impact of these natural forced of climate change are not clearly understood - and they have by far the greater effect on climate. For example, the debate concerning the impact of the sun lies in just how much a role it plays, be it 25% or 50% or 100%. The sun can't be controlled and so it changes climate whether we like it or not. The same goes for any other potential factor that contributes to climate change that lies beyond human activity.

And yes, I have been pointing out that a policy based on GHG reductions from only one sector of economic or human activity is a weak policy. Human contributions to existing inventory of global GHG's from natural sources is actually miniscule. Present modeling leaves out large portions of solar forcings; there is a neglect or misunderstanding of the considerable role of water vapour, there is incomplete knowledge concerning the role of high altitude clouds versus low altitude clouds. Accurate temperature records from the past are incomplete, as is the understanding for what always caused climate shifts. There is also incomplete knowledge concerning the present impact of GHG's in the atmosphere, and on how rapidly they are taken up through photosynthesis from both plants and marine life or dissolved by weathering.

And upon this people want to make absolute statements on human GHG production? That is my question.
 
lol so I guess you know better than the people who actually study this stuff, and pretty much all agree that global warming is a human-caused problem. The "it needs more study" approach is usually just an excuse to delay change. The great thing about it is that you can always use it to delay change forever. Just look at the Ottawa light rail debate, or the intelligent design people.

The science is often tentative in nature and the conclusions rarely ever state anything as being 100% proof.
No science ever states that. Everything from jets to computers to skyscrapers operates on principles that we don't 100% understand. If we didn't act on things until we had 100% proof we'd still be in the stone age.
 

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