JasonParis
Moderator
Has Andrea been hired as the QPP's lawyer?
|
|
|
Welcome to Police State Canada
- Thread starter screenplaying
- Start date
BuildTO
Active Member
Andrea: clearly, you only see what you want to see.
The fact that there was no riot and that the 3 police officers did not assault anyone with rocks is a moot point. Do you assume that a guy with a bomb is not a problem just because the bomb doesn't go off?
The provocateurs' intent was to cause trouble, either to discredit the legitimate protesters by putting on a show of violence for the media (and thank god their ruse was uncovered) or to give the cops in full riot gear an excuse to attack the protesters. This is a particular sore point with me, as I have been involved in many protests, rallies, and marches, and the media always covers the most negative aspect in order to discredit the activist movement. And if there is no negative aspect, then the protest tends to be ignored (back-page coverage, rally numbers drastically under-reported, etc.).
I know some of the organizers, and they are all good people (you don't have to believe me but there are plenty of people on this forum who know me well enough that my word should mean something). It is to their credit that they worked relentlessly to keep the protest peaceful. These protests are often sabotaged by the "ultra-left" - impatient youth who want to stir up trouble either for excitement or to add each arrest to their battle-scar resumés. But in this case, the protesters were clearly peaceful, and the police have some explaining to do. They admit now that the three men were police officers, but claim that they had no intentions of causing trouble. The purpose of rocks remains unexplained...
Long-time activists can cite numerous examples of infiltration by police, not just at protests, but in leftist organizations. The general public is largely unaware of this (although activists are not). Many people from countries where corruption is more obvious or commonplace are accustomed to the phenomenon of agents provocateurs and are not surprised by this incident. The really sad thing is that once again, our government pretends that we are above such things, and refuses to conduct or allow an investigation.
theman23
Active Member
Stockwell Day on this issue:
"The fact that they (the police) stood out because they were not engaging in violence, I think, is an indictment of the protestors."
This was followed by a weird looking smirk. Way to completely misstate what happened, Mr. Day.
"The fact that they (the police) stood out because they were not engaging in violence, I think, is an indictment of the protestors."
This was followed by a weird looking smirk. Way to completely misstate what happened, Mr. Day.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,107
- Reaction score
- 5
- Location
- a strange reality, bizarro toronto
they were using the rocks to weigh themselves down just in case the earths gravity weakened.
it's totally true because at the same time they were holding those rocks, they blasted a ship to outer space which means mass from earth had been lost, thus reducing the effect of gravity. those officers had no other choice or else they could have drifted into space.
JasonParis
Moderator
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Having gone on several demonstrations where the police were present, both as plainclothes and as uniformed officers, I can attest to what BuildTO says about organizers explaining to the crowd at the very start how to march peacefully, and the problems that hot-headed individuals in the crowd can cause. I have seen protesters in large marches where uniformed police are present suddenly behaving violently and out of character with the rest of the marchers, and the only sensible conclusion is that they're attempting provocation.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
I've been in protests where there have been individuals clad in bandanas and carrying clubs under their clothing who used the larger number of peaceful protesters as cover. Then they set about to do their little "protest" of mayhem, incited the police, and managed to trap large numbers of protestors in between. So I'm not at all surprised by police "infiltration" of a public protest.
What's on the news that evening? The bandana kids and their destruction, the police and the tear gas, and no mention of anything that vaguely resembling the reasoned dissent on the part those with legitimate opposing views, and expressions delivered in a reasonable manner.
What's on the news that evening? The bandana kids and their destruction, the police and the tear gas, and no mention of anything that vaguely resembling the reasoned dissent on the part those with legitimate opposing views, and expressions delivered in a reasonable manner.
Zephyr
Active Member
La Défense:
L'objectif (d'un policier infiltré), c'est de se fondre à son environnement … un groupe d'extrémistes
The objective (of an infiltrating policeman), is to blend/melt into his environment … a group of extremists
The objective (of an infiltrating policeman), is to blend/melt into his environment … a group of extremists
Coupures de presse:
BuildTO
Active Member
The following is from an email to the CHAN (Canada Haiti Action Network) email list. The link at the end is an interesting read, particularly because it outlines the media slant I was referring to:
Victor Grossman has reported similar tactics used by the police at a G-8 demo in Germany, followed by the same bullshit denials:
"And then, as the line of cops took up position nearby, ready to end the blockade, it was these four who started picking up stones from between the railroad tracks and lobbing them over towards the police and shouting "Get the bulls"! Then one of the other protesters took a good look at the young man with the logo before he had a chance to pull up his bandana-mask
"'That's the same fellow who arrested me during a demonstration in Bremen last year!' he cried, and he and his friends made a grab for the four. Two of the four made it to police lines, one disappeared, but they caught the one with the red logo, presumably the leader. They did not treat him exactly gently, it must be admitted, but one of the group organizers took hold of the man; sheltering him from the crowd, and dragged him over and delivered him to the police line - and safety.
"Although this episode ended the stone throwing, the police started up with their water cannon anyway, excuse or no excuse.
"Confronted with the facts, the authorities admitted having their men in black clothing ("fresh from the clothing store," it was claimed by protesters), but insisted stubbornly that that they had been there only to observe what was going on, not to take part or provoke trouble. The facts proved otherwise."
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13072
Victor Grossman has reported similar tactics used by the police at a G-8 demo in Germany, followed by the same bullshit denials:
"And then, as the line of cops took up position nearby, ready to end the blockade, it was these four who started picking up stones from between the railroad tracks and lobbing them over towards the police and shouting "Get the bulls"! Then one of the other protesters took a good look at the young man with the logo before he had a chance to pull up his bandana-mask
"'That's the same fellow who arrested me during a demonstration in Bremen last year!' he cried, and he and his friends made a grab for the four. Two of the four made it to police lines, one disappeared, but they caught the one with the red logo, presumably the leader. They did not treat him exactly gently, it must be admitted, but one of the group organizers took hold of the man; sheltering him from the crowd, and dragged him over and delivered him to the police line - and safety.
"Although this episode ended the stone throwing, the police started up with their water cannon anyway, excuse or no excuse.
"Confronted with the facts, the authorities admitted having their men in black clothing ("fresh from the clothing store," it was claimed by protesters), but insisted stubbornly that that they had been there only to observe what was going on, not to take part or provoke trouble. The facts proved otherwise."
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13072
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Here's the video of the actual incident.
This is Globe columnist George Radwanski's take on the issue in his Globe blog:
They still don't get it
Adam Radwanski, 24/08/07 at 11:35 AM EDT
Even in acknowledging last night that the Masked Men of Montebello were cops, the Surete du Quebec demonstrated that it still hasn't quite grasped this whole YouTube thing.
From the Surete's statement: "The police officers were identified by demonstrators when they refused to throw projectiles.”
Nice try, guys. But as anyone with an Internet connection can see for themselves, the officers were identified by demonstrators when they refused to put down their projectiles.
That's a pretty big distinction - the difference between the protesters being a bunch of hooligans, and outright rejecting hooliganism. Lying is a lot harder than it used to be.
***
Update: Evidently not a loyal reader, our Public Safety Minister has gone down the same road - and more explicitly at that. I can't decide if these folks can't figure out how to work YouTube, or if they're just assuming the majority of Canadians can't.
***
Update II: I know I'm starting to repeat myself. But seriously, what is wrong with these people?
As several commenters have pointed out, I was not overly inclined to take these protesters seriously at the start of the week. But after what we've seen this week, I'll take this Dave Coles guy over both Stockwell Day and whoever is purportedly in charge of Quebec's police.
And just to make clear one more time why that is, here, once again, is the video evidence. If you know Stockwell Day and/or a police official, please forward the link.
This is Globe columnist George Radwanski's take on the issue in his Globe blog:
They still don't get it
Adam Radwanski, 24/08/07 at 11:35 AM EDT
Even in acknowledging last night that the Masked Men of Montebello were cops, the Surete du Quebec demonstrated that it still hasn't quite grasped this whole YouTube thing.
From the Surete's statement: "The police officers were identified by demonstrators when they refused to throw projectiles.”
Nice try, guys. But as anyone with an Internet connection can see for themselves, the officers were identified by demonstrators when they refused to put down their projectiles.
That's a pretty big distinction - the difference between the protesters being a bunch of hooligans, and outright rejecting hooliganism. Lying is a lot harder than it used to be.
***
Update: Evidently not a loyal reader, our Public Safety Minister has gone down the same road - and more explicitly at that. I can't decide if these folks can't figure out how to work YouTube, or if they're just assuming the majority of Canadians can't.
***
Update II: I know I'm starting to repeat myself. But seriously, what is wrong with these people?
As several commenters have pointed out, I was not overly inclined to take these protesters seriously at the start of the week. But after what we've seen this week, I'll take this Dave Coles guy over both Stockwell Day and whoever is purportedly in charge of Quebec's police.
And just to make clear one more time why that is, here, once again, is the video evidence. If you know Stockwell Day and/or a police official, please forward the link.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Sûreté du Québec to review practices
CAMPBELL CLARK and INGRID PERITZ AND IAN BAILEY
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
August 25, 2007 at 12:52 AM EDT
MONTREAL, OTTAWA, VANCOUVER — The red-faced Sûreté du Québec promised to review their practices after three of their officers were caught posing as protesters trying to confront a line of officers at this week's Montebello summit.
Both the provincial police and federal Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day defended the police infiltration of protests as legitimate work, however, and insisted that the officers were trying to prevent violence, not incite it.
At the same time, the union leader who confronted the undercover officers, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada president David Coles, said he intends to file charges against the provincial police officers. He and opposition politicians have demanded an inquiry, insisting the police tried to discredit protests by sparking violence.
Videotaped footage of the incident shows the three disguised Sûreté du Québec officers wearing masks and holdings rocks in their hands, walking near a phalanx of officers in riot gear, while Mr. Coles tries to shoo them away, demanding they put down their rocks.
The officers refuse, and one swears and shoves Mr. Coles, and the union leader begins to accuse them of being police officers.
Chanting youths from the so-called Black Bloc told Mr. Coles that the three had been trying to get them to act more aggressively against the police.
Friday, a senior Quebec Provincial Police officer, Inspector Marcel Savard, said the clip shows only a portion of the events.
Earlier, the undercover officers had infiltrated a separate group of "extremists" and one of them handed an officer a rock, he said. The officers left the group and ended up in a crowd of peaceful demonstrators.
"He had a choice, a very quick choice to make," Insp. Savard said. He held onto the rock because "he was still hoping that his cover was good … [but] he never had the intention of using that rock."
He added that undercover work is a legitimate, and standard, form of police work. "If there are methods or procedures that need to be changed or adjusted, you can be reassured, that will be done," he said.
The force had initially denied that their officers were disguised as protesters, but admitted it after the footage circulated widely on YouTube.
Neither Insp. Savard nor Mr. Day would say Friday whether the RCMP, which was in charge of security for the summit, gave the Quebec force permission to deploy undercover officers. Mr. Day said that information was "operational details that I don't get into."
After a news conference in Vancouver, Mr. Day said he would not deter police from using such tactics.
"You can't start getting politicians making the calls, saying, 'It's okay for you to use undercover agents in this drug operation over here, but you can't use them in that over there,'" he said.
He said he got assurances that the RCMP does not instigate violence.
Mr. Day also said that the three officers were identified because they were not throwing rocks like other protesters — although reporters at the scene said they did not see extensive rock-throwing until long after the incident with the undercover officers.
Critics did not buy Quebec Provincial Police's explanation and said Ottawa has to give the public a more detailed accounting.
"Does this mean the next time there is a demonstration against the war in Iraq or to preserve health care, we may be in a situation where there will be police officers holding rocks?" asked NDP MP Peter Julian.
Mr. Coles said he believes the police acted on political orders to discredit protesters, and that an inquiry would find that politicians gave the police orders, just as they did at the 1997 APEC protests in Vancouver,
"They were sent in to agitate, to try to create trouble," Mr. Coles said. "I say the politicians are in this up to their eyeballs. They were at APEC and they are in this one."
Martin Courcy, an expert in conflict management who has advised several police forces in Quebec, including the SQ, says the mere fact an officer was holding a rock was an act of provocation.
"They could serve as models to others, and in that sense there's provocation," he said. Police infiltration is meant to defuse conflicts. "In this case, they didn't defuse conflict, they provoked conflict."
He deemed the effort amateurish and said the officers should have unmasked themselves when confronted by real protesters. "These are not infiltration professionals," Mr. Courcy said.
CAMPBELL CLARK and INGRID PERITZ AND IAN BAILEY
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
August 25, 2007 at 12:52 AM EDT
MONTREAL, OTTAWA, VANCOUVER — The red-faced Sûreté du Québec promised to review their practices after three of their officers were caught posing as protesters trying to confront a line of officers at this week's Montebello summit.
Both the provincial police and federal Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day defended the police infiltration of protests as legitimate work, however, and insisted that the officers were trying to prevent violence, not incite it.
At the same time, the union leader who confronted the undercover officers, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada president David Coles, said he intends to file charges against the provincial police officers. He and opposition politicians have demanded an inquiry, insisting the police tried to discredit protests by sparking violence.
Videotaped footage of the incident shows the three disguised Sûreté du Québec officers wearing masks and holdings rocks in their hands, walking near a phalanx of officers in riot gear, while Mr. Coles tries to shoo them away, demanding they put down their rocks.
The officers refuse, and one swears and shoves Mr. Coles, and the union leader begins to accuse them of being police officers.
Chanting youths from the so-called Black Bloc told Mr. Coles that the three had been trying to get them to act more aggressively against the police.
Friday, a senior Quebec Provincial Police officer, Inspector Marcel Savard, said the clip shows only a portion of the events.
Earlier, the undercover officers had infiltrated a separate group of "extremists" and one of them handed an officer a rock, he said. The officers left the group and ended up in a crowd of peaceful demonstrators.
"He had a choice, a very quick choice to make," Insp. Savard said. He held onto the rock because "he was still hoping that his cover was good … [but] he never had the intention of using that rock."
He added that undercover work is a legitimate, and standard, form of police work. "If there are methods or procedures that need to be changed or adjusted, you can be reassured, that will be done," he said.
The force had initially denied that their officers were disguised as protesters, but admitted it after the footage circulated widely on YouTube.
Neither Insp. Savard nor Mr. Day would say Friday whether the RCMP, which was in charge of security for the summit, gave the Quebec force permission to deploy undercover officers. Mr. Day said that information was "operational details that I don't get into."
After a news conference in Vancouver, Mr. Day said he would not deter police from using such tactics.
"You can't start getting politicians making the calls, saying, 'It's okay for you to use undercover agents in this drug operation over here, but you can't use them in that over there,'" he said.
He said he got assurances that the RCMP does not instigate violence.
Mr. Day also said that the three officers were identified because they were not throwing rocks like other protesters — although reporters at the scene said they did not see extensive rock-throwing until long after the incident with the undercover officers.
Critics did not buy Quebec Provincial Police's explanation and said Ottawa has to give the public a more detailed accounting.
"Does this mean the next time there is a demonstration against the war in Iraq or to preserve health care, we may be in a situation where there will be police officers holding rocks?" asked NDP MP Peter Julian.
Mr. Coles said he believes the police acted on political orders to discredit protesters, and that an inquiry would find that politicians gave the police orders, just as they did at the 1997 APEC protests in Vancouver,
"They were sent in to agitate, to try to create trouble," Mr. Coles said. "I say the politicians are in this up to their eyeballs. They were at APEC and they are in this one."
Martin Courcy, an expert in conflict management who has advised several police forces in Quebec, including the SQ, says the mere fact an officer was holding a rock was an act of provocation.
"They could serve as models to others, and in that sense there's provocation," he said. Police infiltration is meant to defuse conflicts. "In this case, they didn't defuse conflict, they provoked conflict."
He deemed the effort amateurish and said the officers should have unmasked themselves when confronted by real protesters. "These are not infiltration professionals," Mr. Courcy said.
The Mississauga Muse
Active Member
Been following this thread all the way through. Interesting --all of it.
As one post pointed our our governments and their agencies are corrupt --it's just more subtle than that of other countries.
Yes, lying is a lot harder for governments now but so what? Even caught on tape, they'll still get their spinmeisters in full gear.
And even if they outright admitted it so what? There is no such thing as accountability. It's ALL --not, it's not even all illusion.
"accountability" is just a word about a concept that doesn't even exist. The only people I ever see paying for their mistakes are the powerless.
In some ways it's worse here. At least in some banana republic the local creeps-in-power aren't mouthing about how they're serving their people.
Dear Leader at least isn't a Hypocrite.
What kills me most is that they treat us like we're DOLTS --STUPID STUPIDER STUPIDESTs!
I've just been observing/researching government for just over a year now and I LOATHE the LOT.
Signed,
The (Disgusted and P/$$ed) Mississauga Muse
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
You also call the average Mississaugan "clueless" because they haven't yet experienced the municipal epiphany that you have. You're becoming the Major Complainer of the political threads.
The Mississauga Muse
Active Member
And that's why God gave you the SKIP-OVER the Major-Complainer-of-the-political threads Key.
The Mississauga Muse
Active Member
EDITORIAL MISSISSAUGA NEWS: