Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[Leo_Chan]

It's missing at least two key characteristics of rapid transit: frequency and signal priority, as well as ROW only part of the route.

Frequency can be improved with funding, signal priority can always be improved with proper motivation, and the ROW can always be completed with extra funding. There’s nothing that fundamentally make Viva Rapidways not Rapid Transit, but it’s definitely not in the ideal state right now.

 

[hw621]

Frequency can be improved with funding, signal priority can always be improved with proper motivation, and the ROW can always be completed with extra funding. There’s nothing that fundamentally make Viva Rapidways not Rapid Transit, but it’s definitely not in the ideal state right now.

So not rapid transit in its current state

 

[innsertnamehere]

Viva on Yonge should be pretty close to rapid transit given that its frequencies, at least south of Bernard Terminal, are quite good.

 

[hw621]

Frequency on Hwy 7 is pathetic, compared with the investment

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Frequency on Hwy 7 is pathetic, compared with the investment

Can we move the Viva discussion out of the thread for the ION LRT please.

 

[Streety McCarface]

It's missing at least two key characteristics of rapid transit: frequency and signal priority, as well as ROW only part of the route.

Frequency can be improved with funding, signal priority can always be improved with proper motivation, and the ROW can always be completed with extra funding. There’s nothing that fundamentally make Viva Rapidways not Rapid Transit, but it’s definitely not in the ideal state right now.

It runs on the road, not on its own corridor segregated from all other vehicles. VIVA rapid ways are not rapid transit by the general definition of rail rapid transit, rather is just BRT. The nomenclature breaks down at this point so it's pointless arguing about it.

Personal Opinion: they just call it "Bus Rapid Transit" because they're too cheap to build rail, and it gives the public a sense of value-for-money (which most systems are, but the vast majority are names and nothing more) when in most cases, it's just improved bus service. Very few (Mississauga transit-way for the most part, OC Transpo's Rapidways) are actually at the level of rapid transit. Most (MTA Select Bus Service, iON BRT, iXpress (2XX GRT), HSR's proposed lines, Rockets (9XX TTC), Züm (5XX Brampton), VIVA (for the majority of it), etc) are just cheaply-executed bus improvements rather than actual rapid bus service, which costs significantly more.

 

[micheal_can]

It runs on the road, not on its own corridor segregated from all other vehicles. VIVA rapid ways are not rapid transit by the general definition of rail rapid transit, rather is just BRT. The nomenclature breaks down at this point so it's pointless arguing about it.

Personal Opinion: they just call it "Bus Rapid Transit" because they're too cheap to build rail, and it gives the public a sense of value-for-money (which most systems are, but the vast majority are names and nothing more) when in most cases, it's just improved bus service. Very few (Mississauga transit-way for the most part, OC Transpo's Rapidways) are actually at the level of rapid transit. Most (MTA Select Bus Service, iON BRT, iXpress (2XX GRT), HSR's proposed lines, Rockets (9XX TTC), Züm (5XX Brampton), VIVA (for the majority of it), etc) are just cheaply-executed bus improvements rather than actual rapid bus service, which costs significantly more.

Does the VIVA buses sit in traffic? Some routes they do, but as they build them like they are on highway 7, they no longer sit in traffic. I think the lights are even well enough timed so that they are not waiting long for that light to change. Sounds pretty rapid to me.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Does the VIVA buses sit in traffic? Some routes they do, but as they build them like they are on highway 7, they no longer sit in traffic. I think the lights are even well enough timed so that they are not waiting long for that light to change. Sounds pretty rapid to me.

The main defining factor is grade separation. One could make an argument that the Montreal metro is made up of giant buses, and is rapid transit because it's fully grade separated. VIVA is not.

I'd even make the argument for most of the Mississauga transit way since, again, it's grade separated from traffic. Only the buses are allowed to use the rapidway, and are never crossed by cars. VIVA doesn't have this, it's more in line of surface light rail transit, I guess a form of light rapid transit, but it can't be put on the same level as a metro.

 

[micheal_can]

The main defining factor is grade separation. One could make an argument that the Montreal metro is made up of giant buses, and is rapid transit because it's fully grade separated. VIVA is not.

I'd even make the argument for most of the Mississauga transit way since, again, it's grade separated from traffic. Only the buses are allowed to use the rapidway, and are never crossed by cars. VIVA doesn't have this, it's more in line of surface light rail transit, I guess a form of light rapid transit, but it can't be put on the same level as a metro.

So, GO train with its many crossings, by your own definition is not rapid.

 

[Streety McCarface]

So, GO train with its many crossings, by your own definition is not rapid.

The difference there is that barriers exist to prevent vehicles from entering, guaranteeing signal priority. This doesn't happen with VIVA, and it can take more than 10 minutes away on a typical trip along hwy 7, which is huge.

Also, the vast majority of GO lines are grade separated, and are private property. Anyone can walk into a VIVA rapidway and cross there, creating a hazard that limits speed. If you're grade separated, you're limited to the engineering standards of the corridor (usually in excess of 80 km/h on the Toronto subways, and 80 mph on certain GO lines). However, because of the fact that pedestrians, vehicles, and bikes are not isolated from the bus rapidway to a point in which trains can go near their maximum speeds at all time.

 

[KevinT]

Getting back on topic, ION did its first night testing this evening with both 505 and 507 lapping between Conestoga Station and the Cameron crossover south of the Kitchener Market station. I managed to catch 505:

 

[steveintoronto]

Getting back on topic, ION did its first night testing this evening with both 505 and 507 lapping between Conestoga Station and the Cameron crossover south of the Kitchener Market station. I managed to catch 505:

Incredible! Not for anything visual, but the lack of noise from the vehicle. Wheel squeal save for some sharp radii, is almost non-existent. I'd suspect squelching in the audio circuit of your Samsung...except background noise, like the glockenspiel, and the crossing barrier alarm (takes me back to San Diego!) are reference for the ambient background level.

Were the tracks greased, or have lubricant squirters at crucial points? I watched it again, to make sure of my impression. I live a hop, skip and jump from Dundas West, and you can hear every streetcar enter and exit in excruciating detail. I suspect the track head geometry and gauge spacing is a big factor too, as well as softer radii on curves. Perhaps even the wheels are milled with a different profile than the TTC Flexities?

Very impressive...and I get a flutter every time seeing K/W scenes. It's a personal thing, romantic history and all...It's like K/W is morphing into a sophisticated conurbation. It looks good on you!

Now, about that X200 bus down to Galt bus terminal. Yikes...Hopefully it's doing a graceful exit soon...

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Incredible! Not for anything visual, but the lack of noise from the vehicle. Wheel squeal save for some sharp radii, is almost non-existent. I'd suspect squelching in the audio circuit of your Samsung...except background noise, like the glockenspiel, and the crossing barrier alarm (takes me back to San Diego!) are reference for the ambient background level.

Were the tracks greased, or have lubricant squirters at crucial points? I watched it again, to make sure of my impression. I live a hop, skip and jump from Dundas West, and you can hear every streetcar enter and exit in excruciating detail. I suspect the track head geometry and gauge spacing is a big factor too, as well as softer radii on curves. Perhaps even the wheels are milled with a different profile than the TTC Flexities?

Very impressive...and I get a flutter every time seeing K/W scenes. It's a personal thing, romantic history and all...It's like K/W is morphing into a sophisticated conurbation. It looks good on you!

Now, about that X200 bus down to Galt bus terminal. Yikes...Hopefully it's doing a graceful exit soon...

At the moment the track lubricators aren't tuned precisely yet and so they aren't necessarily greasing the track enough. That will change in the coming weeks as more and more vehicles start travelling the line as testing ramps up. Our curves are also 25m minimums compared to 11m minimums with the TTC Streetcar network

 

[KevinT]

Incredible! Not for anything visual, but the lack of noise from the vehicle. Wheel squeal save for some sharp radii, is almost non-existent. I'd suspect squelching in the audio circuit of your Samsung...except background noise, like the glockenspiel, and the crossing barrier alarm (takes me back to San Diego!) are reference for the ambient background level.

Were the tracks greased, or have lubricant squirters at crucial points?

It really is that quiet, the lubricators are running now. If you watch my 507 Saturday Testing video from May at time index 2:55 you'll hear what this corner was like before. As @jordanmkasla2009 says though, they still need some tuning. There's some rather greasy spots at the crossings near Waterloo Public Square that may become challenging for road vehicles braking in wet weather.

 

[crs1026]

That video is the first time I had noticed the black markings on the floor of the platform, indicating where the doors of the car will come to a stop. Does the operator have to align manually, or is that precision in stopping an automatic function?

- Paul