Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[drum118]

I think the hold-up has been $$$$$ rather than planning. The planning has gone on for over 15 years (I think I went to my first meeting on it in 2004 or 2005) and Waterfront Toronto used to, proudly, talk of "Transit First".

Transit First started in 2004 along with no money by TTC in 2005.

Been waiting 12 years to see construction start as well ride the extension. Only have to look at when the EA was approved to see how long it been. TTC was short $90 million when the EA was approved that has grown to $600 million today.

2030-35 is still looking like when we will get a chance to ride X extension

 

[allengeorge]

I just don't understand how it takes so god damn long to design this thing. I feel like every year we get a report to council along the lines of "direct staff to continue to design line", and that's been happening for like 4-5 years now.

Speaking cynically, it seems par for the course when Toronto tries to build a transit line. From the outside it appears that the city slow rolls planning and stretches it out while waiting for the federal and provincial funding climate to line up just right.

I’d rather the city raise taxes to pay for the line or put the project on ice, and come up with a reasonable bus alternative. Heck - maybe the reason they don’t do that is that now they’ve the best of both worlds: they don’t have to operate a bus service OR build a line, because they’re ‘planning’; negligible money out the door.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I suspect this one is on ice right now because the provincial government won't give money for a streetcar - which is a damn shame.

 

[allengeorge]

I suspect this one is on ice right now because the provincial government won't give money for a streetcar - which is a damn shame.

Yeah - I think you’re right on that one.

I also suspect that by the time the provincial government changes, we’ll see a different federal government, so the funding environment still won’t line up.

I don’t know what the correct institutional solution for Toronto building transit is, but I feel like whatever it’s doing now has long passed it’s “best before” date. We can’t get new rail lines up, RapidTO is taking multiple years for a single road to be reconfigured… I think we want transit, but only on the cheap.

 

[smallspy]

I just don't understand how it takes so god damn long to design this thing. I feel like every year we get a report to council along the lines of "direct staff to continue to design line", and that's been happening for like 4-5 years now.

Because it's really easy to draw lines on a map.

But actually making sure that the line fit where they are supposed to - especially underground, where it is way harder to figure out where everything is located - is a really hard thing to do and takes a lot of time.

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

Yeah - I think you’re right on that one.

I also suspect that by the time the provincial government changes, we’ll see a different federal government, so the funding environment still won’t line up.

I don’t know what the correct institutional solution for Toronto building transit is, but I feel like whatever it’s doing now has long passed it’s “best before” date. We can’t get new rail lines up, RapidTO is taking multiple years for a single road to be reconfigured… I think we want transit, but only on the cheap.

There is much to complain about when it comes to our infrastructure investments in general, and transit in particular.......

But it does merit saying..........Toronto is building more transit, and spending more dollars doing so than any other City in North America.

Between the Ontario Line, the SSE, Yonge North and Eglinton West (forget all the other suburban projects, or the 2 LRTs being worked on currently).........and you have an extraordinary investment.

Yonge North: 8km
Ontario Line: 15.6km
Eglinton West: 9.2km
SSE: 7.8km

Total subway/light metro construction by distance: 40.6km

Total stations: 30

Total cost 26.7 Billion

So lets catch our breath a bit and not suggest we're nickel and diming all the way here.

 

[allengeorge]

But it does merit saying..........Toronto is building more transit, and spending more dollars doing so than any other City in North America.

Between the Ontario Line, the SSE, Yonge North and Eglinton West (forget all the other suburban projects, or the 2 LRTs being worked on currently).........and you have an extraordinary investment.

Those are all funded and managed by the provincial government and Metrolinx. I tried to be very specific about projects completely managed by the city of Toronto.

 

[Northern Light]

Those are all funded and managed by the provincial government and Metrolinx. I tried to be very specific about projects completely managed by the city of Toronto.

Fair enough, except that the City was stifled from implementing tolls to pay for transit expansion.

While I'd happily accept and have advocated for a material, above-inflation property tax increase, I think most of that would and should go to operations and to capital projects in areas like Parks that have been woefully underfunded for a generation.

In that context, I expect the City is looking to the Feds to chip in for the Waterfront LRT.........

It has to be said, the Feds are being excruciating slow handing out promised money already. Programs to support City infrastructure announced in spring 2021 still haven't seen a single dollar transferred to the City (and the applications were in a very long time ago)

*****

All of that said, I'll agree that RapidTO is being slow-walked by the City for no good reason I'm aware of.

 

[ARG1]

All of that said, I'll agree that RapidTO is being slow-walked by the City for no good reason I'm aware of.

Unfortunately at this point in time I can't find the original tweet, but my best guess on why the city is slow-walking RapidTO has to do with the backlash they got on Eglinton for cutting stops. I remember there was a video on twitter with a local community member malding at the TTC for cutting stops without any community consultation or prior notice, and something tells me the whole scenerio seriously spooked City Hall. Immediately after that backlash they decided to reinstate bus service on Eglinton East alongside the LRT in their future bus plan, and put on hold all future RapidTO construction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yeah - I think you’re right on that one.

I also suspect that by the time the provincial government changes, we’ll see a different federal government, so the funding environment still won’t line up.

I don’t know what the correct institutional solution for Toronto building transit is, but I feel like whatever it’s doing now has long passed it’s “best before” date. We can’t get new rail lines up, RapidTO is taking multiple years for a single road to be reconfigured… I think we want transit, but only on the cheap.

It's a pretty unique situation with Ford being vehemently anti-streetcar, which is the real issue.

I don't think a conservative Federal government would care about giving money to a streetcar project, as long as it comes from their regular infrastructure funds.

The PC government has been very good to transit in Toronto, but the focus has obviously been on Subways. Generally it's not a terrible approach, but in this situation the streetcar is needed and should be getting funding.

 

[H4F33Z]

Unfortunately at this point in time I can't find the original tweet, but my best guess on why the city is slow-walking RapidTO has to do with the backlash they got on Eglinton for cutting stops. I remember there was a video on twitter with a local community member malding at the TTC for cutting stops without any community consultation or prior notice, and something tells me the whole scenerio seriously spooked City Hall. Immediately after that backlash they decided to reinstate bus service on Eglinton East alongside the LRT in their future bus plan, and put on hold all future RapidTO construction.

It's probably because of the controversy surrounding removing traffic lanes. Especially Jane that stirred the local councillors.

 

[Northern Light]

It's probably because of the controversy surrounding removing traffic lanes. Especially Jane that stirred the local councillors.

I'm genuinely not sure what role that may have played; but to the extent it has played one........it does speak to the need to the need to:

a) Build out infra like that from the places it will already be well received towards those where it may be more of a tough sell.
Just like cycle tracks, Danforth Avenue comes before Markham Road, because one is going to have a lot of vocal advocates and fewer (but still many) skeptics.
That should not be seen as an excuse to under-serve the suburban areas, but just an acknowledgement of how to get stuff done.

b) There is a need w/o wasting too much money or having too much scope-creep to make sure to include some non-transportation/secondary benefits w/the project to help make the medicine go down more easily.
This could be streetscapes/beautification, public squares, creating/enhancing nearby parks.
Pretty renders do not take a project from strongly opposed to easy sell; but they can take it from tough sell to manageable sell.

 

[max]

It's a pretty unique situation with Ford being vehemently anti-streetcar, which is the real issue.

I don't think a conservative Federal government would care about giving money to a streetcar project, as long as it comes from their regular infrastructure funds.

The PC government has been very good to transit in Toronto, but the focus has obviously been on Subways. Generally it's not a terrible approach, but in this situation the streetcar is needed and should be getting funding.

Yup, the Harper Government was paying for a share of the Sheppard East LRT as it was a 2015 Pan Am transit project.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's a uniquely Ford Issue specifically in Toronto. Ford has provided funding for LRT projects elsewhere in the province like Hamilton and has indicated support for Kitcheners LRT expansion, but in Toronto he clearly maintains a clear aversion to it and I suspect that's why Provincial funding has failed to materialize here.

Had another person been the PC leader right now I suspect things would be going differently.

 

[EnviroTO]

The old infrastructure funding model was a third each for city, province, and federal government. The province took over most major transit infrastructure from the city so the city didn't have to pay for any of that, leaving it with only EELRT and WELRT. City Council isn't elected to come up with dreams that other levels of government pay for... they need to get serious. Why blame Ford for not liking streetcars when he paid for everything else in theory freeing up the city's funds for the infrastructure it would like to spend money on?