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VIA Rail

We get way too wrapped up in random self-imposed expectations in this country and then don't build a thing when the task looks daunting. We need to learn to eat the elephant one bite at a time. Build that first stretch of HFR. Add to it in the East and West. Do a few straightenings and grade separations every year. Etc. The ideal outcome would be that the line gets a little bit longer and faster every year. Nobody should even notice as HFR transitions to full Quebec-Windsor HSR over the next 20 years.

Totally agree...get started asap, work incrementally, walk before we run.... and yet.....

There has to be a “game plan” for the whole corridor, that extends beyond a particular government and beyond a particular phase of construction.and a particular route segment.

This is why I hold my nose and praise Metrolinx for its RER strategy. The execution is flawed, and parts get rewritten, and it’s taking forever, but the underlying plan is sound and they have begun with the end in mind.

VIA has no comparable strategy, so the “what’s next” phases could be decades away.

VIA may have such a plan, and is forbidden to make it public. If so, that’s the problem.

- Paul
 
We get way too wrapped up in random self-imposed expectations in this country and then don't build a thing when the task looks daunting. We need to learn to eat the elephant one bite at a time. Build that first stretch of HFR. Add to it in the East and West. Do a few straightenings and grade separations every year. Etc. The ideal outcome would be that the line gets a little bit longer and faster every year. Nobody should even notice as HFR transitions to full Quebec-Windsor HSR over the next 20 years.

Totally agree...get started asap, work incrementally, walk before we run.... and yet.....

There has to be a “game plan” for the whole corridor, that extends beyond a particular government and beyond a particular phase of construction.and a particular route segment.

This is why I hold my nose and praise Metrolinx for its RER strategy. The execution is flawed, and parts get rewritten, and it’s taking forever, but the underlying plan is sound and they have begun with the end in mind. Parts are getting done.

VIA has no comparable strategy, so with Ottawa’s lethargy, the “what’s next” phases could be decades away.

VIA may have such a plan, and is forbidden to make it public. If so, that’s the problem.

- Paul
 
Given the inconsistent funding over the years, it's hard to strategize. I strongly suspect HFR would change that once it starts service, as communities further down start pressuring the Feds for service.

I’m sure they will.

I’m criticising Ottawa, not VIA.

It must be hard for folks at VIA to stay positive with all the delay.

- Paul
 
I’m sure they will.

I’m criticising Ottawa, not VIA.

It must be hard for folks at VIA to stay positive with all the delay.

- Paul
I have of course no idea what signals (if any) our Execs are receiving out of Ottawa, but the mood seems to be rather positive in all meetings I’ve witnessed, as if the question was no longer an “if”, but an “what is going to be the project scope and who pays how much of the bill”...
 
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I’m sure they will.

I’m criticising Ottawa, not VIA.

It must be hard for folks at VIA to stay positive with all the delay.

- Paul
Here you go again, criticizing the City of Ottawa for the actions of people who are mostly from other parts of the country. 😜

When Ontario’s provincial government does things, we don’t blame the city of Toronto, we blame Queens Park.
 
For better or worse, "Ottawa" is short hand for the feds.
I agree it is in common use but there are a lot of words that were previously in common use but are now no longer considered appropriate. I’m not saying Ottawa is in the same caliber as most of those, but it does show that people can change.
 
I agree it is in common use but there are a lot of words that were previously in common use but are now no longer considered appropriate. I’m not saying Ottawa is in the same caliber as most of those, but it does show that people can change.

I hate to say "Parliament Hill", given that Parliament doesn't even get to say much about VIA.

Would "East Block" be appropriate?

- Paul
 
A similarly kw rated diesel engine is more fuel efficient than a gas turbine.. If you want even better efficiency? Steam... Pound for pound of fuel, a steam system running a generator would be the best.

Energy efficiency isn't measured in terms of "Pound for pound of fuel." It is a ratio of productive energy out vs. the energy in. A utility scale coal powered steam generator is only about 37% efficient (a smaller sized generator would likely be less efficient). By comparison, a diesel-electric locomotive transfers about 30-35 percent of the energy generated by combustion to the wheels (including the loss of the traction motor). When you take into account the reduced efficiency resulting from a smaller steam generator with the additional loss from the traction motor, a steam-electric locomotive wouldn't be any more efficient and it would be a lot more polluting. Now maybe a combined cycle gas powered generator in a locomotive might be more efficient, but that would bring on its own set of issues.

Remember, all modern trains are electrically driven, so, we need to think of the generation of the electricity.

While many (most?) trains are electrically driven, not all are. For example, many DMUs (and some locomotives) are diesel–hydraulic.
 
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Energy efficiency isn't measured in terms of "Pound for pound of fuel." It is a ration of productive energy out vs. the energy in. A utility scale coal powered steam generator is only about 37% efficient (a smaller sized generator would likely be less efficient). By comparison, a diesel-electric locomotive transfers about 30-35 percent of the energy generated by combustion to the wheels (including the loss of the traction motor). When you take into account the reduced efficiency resulting from a smaller steam generator with the additional loss from the traction motor, a steam-electric locomotive wouldn't be any more efficient and it would be a lot more polluting. Now maybe a combined cycle gas powered generator in a locomotive might be more efficient, but that would bring on its own set of issues.
I was trying to simplify it for those that may not fully understand it.

So, I was talking about 3 different cycles.
The Rankine, Diesel and Brayton cycles, all of which are theoretical, but are generally accepted when talking about efficiency.

Then we have the "Pound for pound of fuel." that I said. Most people do not understand what kj/kg are.

But really, we are talking how much energy from a given method is the cheapest per watt. This is where it gets messy as the math would show that on board energy conversion from the 3 cycles; Rankine, Diesel and Brayton that Rankine, and Diesel are close, depending on fuel, and cost of fuel. The discussion was about a gas turbine running a train. That is the Brayton cycle. The calculations show that of the 3 cycles, per watt, the Brayton is the least efficient one of them all. So, when picking a heat engine, many things come into play. One is the efficiency. The other is the cost of the fuel. If we took a similarly rated Rankine, Diesel and Brayton plant, using the same fuel, then a Rankine or Diesel could be used. But, let's say we don't have access liquid fuels. Well, the only one is the Rankine. Nuclear plants, such as Darlington, Pickering and Bruce all are simple Rankine plants that use the heat given off from nuclear fission to heat the water going to a steam turbine. So, if we ever can get a fission plant to meet the required crash standards, and be small enough to fit on an existing engine, there would be no need for batteries, or other prime movers to move trains.

A combined cycle plant, as you suggest might be better, but now we are talking space. Typically, those plants of a same sized watt rating are bigger. That means that on your typical platform, you would need more of them to get the same pulling power. This now comes down to: what is the smallest sized plant to create the most electricity? That answer is Brayton, Diesel, then Rankine. Combined cycle would be bigger than the Rankine as it needs the gas turbine, plus all the reheaters and other ductwork to get as much usable energy out of the heat created.

So, when I hear talk of gas turbines coming back, I laugh. There are reasons they are no longer used in much else besides aircraft.

While many (most?) trains are electrically driven, not all are. For example, many DMUs (and some locomotives) are diesel–hydraulic.

True. Fun fact, both the RDCs and the Nippon Sharyo DMUs are both that variant. Having said that, there is no reason an electric motor could not be swapped in for the diesel engine. There is no reason that if any lines that use these are electrified, that they cannot be converted. You could get motors with the right watt rating and the right voltage.

Throughout this, I am using the watt instead of kilowatt to simplify things. I don't use horsepower because then I would have to talk about the slug..... and that just gets messy.
 
While I normally avoid discussion of rolling stock, I thought this video might be of interest here. The context is simply my looking forward to what the new Chargers will present for the average traveller. The reviewer's comments may hint at some positive things that hopefully Siemens does just as well, and some things that they might improve on over this product.

Given past discussion here about DMU, the contrast between the interior experience during the electric and DMU portions of this train's journey is interesting.

It's just one reviewer's opinion, and I'm not pro or con this train product... it's the things the reviewer thinks are worth pointing out that are interesting.


- Paul
 
So, when I hear talk of gas turbines coming back, I laugh. There are reasons they are no longer used in much else besides aircraft.
In the past they didn't have the batteries they do today. That was the original point. That it might be possible to run turbines at an optimal rpm continuously with batteries to even out the load. Given how much turbines and batteries have improved over the last two decades I wouldn't rule it out. That said, it might just be more reliable and lower total cost to just field hydrogen or battery electric train in a decade. I am going to bet that some of the battery improvement coming (just look at what Quantumscape is doing) is going to make even diesel obsolete in 5-10 years.
 
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Fun fact, both the RDCs and the Nippon Sharyo DMUs are both that variant.

Thats actually not technically correct The Nippon Sharyo DMUs for the UPX use a 6 speed mechanical gearbox. They are essentially big rail buses.

However they are not diesel-electric, yes.
 

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