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VIA Rail

A similarly kw rated diesel engine is more fuel efficient than a gas turbine.. If you want even better efficiency? Steam... Pound for pound of fuel, a steam system running a generator would be the best.

Energy efficiency isn't measured in terms of "Pound for pound of fuel." It is a ratio of productive energy out vs. the energy in. A utility scale coal powered steam generator is only about 37% efficient (a smaller sized generator would likely be less efficient). By comparison, a diesel-electric locomotive transfers about 30-35 percent of the energy generated by combustion to the wheels (including the loss of the traction motor). When you take into account the reduced efficiency resulting from a smaller steam generator with the additional loss from the traction motor, a steam-electric locomotive wouldn't be any more efficient and it would be a lot more polluting. Now maybe a combined cycle gas powered generator in a locomotive might be more efficient, but that would bring on its own set of issues.

Remember, all modern trains are electrically driven, so, we need to think of the generation of the electricity.

While many (most?) trains are electrically driven, not all are. For example, many DMUs (and some locomotives) are diesel–hydraulic.
 
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Energy efficiency isn't measured in terms of "Pound for pound of fuel." It is a ration of productive energy out vs. the energy in. A utility scale coal powered steam generator is only about 37% efficient (a smaller sized generator would likely be less efficient). By comparison, a diesel-electric locomotive transfers about 30-35 percent of the energy generated by combustion to the wheels (including the loss of the traction motor). When you take into account the reduced efficiency resulting from a smaller steam generator with the additional loss from the traction motor, a steam-electric locomotive wouldn't be any more efficient and it would be a lot more polluting. Now maybe a combined cycle gas powered generator in a locomotive might be more efficient, but that would bring on its own set of issues.
I was trying to simplify it for those that may not fully understand it.

So, I was talking about 3 different cycles.
The Rankine, Diesel and Brayton cycles, all of which are theoretical, but are generally accepted when talking about efficiency.

Then we have the "Pound for pound of fuel." that I said. Most people do not understand what kj/kg are.

But really, we are talking how much energy from a given method is the cheapest per watt. This is where it gets messy as the math would show that on board energy conversion from the 3 cycles; Rankine, Diesel and Brayton that Rankine, and Diesel are close, depending on fuel, and cost of fuel. The discussion was about a gas turbine running a train. That is the Brayton cycle. The calculations show that of the 3 cycles, per watt, the Brayton is the least efficient one of them all. So, when picking a heat engine, many things come into play. One is the efficiency. The other is the cost of the fuel. If we took a similarly rated Rankine, Diesel and Brayton plant, using the same fuel, then a Rankine or Diesel could be used. But, let's say we don't have access liquid fuels. Well, the only one is the Rankine. Nuclear plants, such as Darlington, Pickering and Bruce all are simple Rankine plants that use the heat given off from nuclear fission to heat the water going to a steam turbine. So, if we ever can get a fission plant to meet the required crash standards, and be small enough to fit on an existing engine, there would be no need for batteries, or other prime movers to move trains.

A combined cycle plant, as you suggest might be better, but now we are talking space. Typically, those plants of a same sized watt rating are bigger. That means that on your typical platform, you would need more of them to get the same pulling power. This now comes down to: what is the smallest sized plant to create the most electricity? That answer is Brayton, Diesel, then Rankine. Combined cycle would be bigger than the Rankine as it needs the gas turbine, plus all the reheaters and other ductwork to get as much usable energy out of the heat created.

So, when I hear talk of gas turbines coming back, I laugh. There are reasons they are no longer used in much else besides aircraft.

While many (most?) trains are electrically driven, not all are. For example, many DMUs (and some locomotives) are diesel–hydraulic.

True. Fun fact, both the RDCs and the Nippon Sharyo DMUs are both that variant. Having said that, there is no reason an electric motor could not be swapped in for the diesel engine. There is no reason that if any lines that use these are electrified, that they cannot be converted. You could get motors with the right watt rating and the right voltage.

Throughout this, I am using the watt instead of kilowatt to simplify things. I don't use horsepower because then I would have to talk about the slug..... and that just gets messy.
 
While I normally avoid discussion of rolling stock, I thought this video might be of interest here. The context is simply my looking forward to what the new Chargers will present for the average traveller. The reviewer's comments may hint at some positive things that hopefully Siemens does just as well, and some things that they might improve on over this product.

Given past discussion here about DMU, the contrast between the interior experience during the electric and DMU portions of this train's journey is interesting.

It's just one reviewer's opinion, and I'm not pro or con this train product... it's the things the reviewer thinks are worth pointing out that are interesting.


- Paul
 
So, when I hear talk of gas turbines coming back, I laugh. There are reasons they are no longer used in much else besides aircraft.
In the past they didn't have the batteries they do today. That was the original point. That it might be possible to run turbines at an optimal rpm continuously with batteries to even out the load. Given how much turbines and batteries have improved over the last two decades I wouldn't rule it out. That said, it might just be more reliable and lower total cost to just field hydrogen or battery electric train in a decade. I am going to bet that some of the battery improvement coming (just look at what Quantumscape is doing) is going to make even diesel obsolete in 5-10 years.
 
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Fun fact, both the RDCs and the Nippon Sharyo DMUs are both that variant.

Thats actually not technically correct The Nippon Sharyo DMUs for the UPX use a 6 speed mechanical gearbox. They are essentially big rail buses.

However they are not diesel-electric, yes.
 
In the past they didn't have the batteries they do today. That was the original point. That it might be possible to run turbines at an optimal rpm continuously with batteries to even out the load. Given how much turbines and batteries have improved over the last two decades I wouldn't rule it out. That said, it might just be more reliable and lower total cost to just field hydrogen or battery electric train in a decade.

I would bet more on a battery electric train over a turbine battery system. However, why use a battery if you can just electrify the line? I see that as the most likely next step.
 
Thats actually not technically correct The Nippon Sharyo DMUs for the UPX use a 6 speed mechanical gearbox. They are essentially big rail buses.

However they are not diesel-electric, yes.

What shifts it? The answer is the same as your automatic transmission - hydraulics. There is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels.
 
I would bet more on a battery electric train over a turbine battery system. However, why use a battery if you can just electrify the line? I see that as the most likely next step.
Building the infrastructure to electrify is expensive. Battery cost is dropping and recharge times are too. The math on these decisions is changing so fast it is hard to keep up in a ‘rule of thumb’ way. This will be a decade of massive changes to rules of thumb that have ruled our world since gasoline and diesel came out on top 100 years ago for private vehicles.
 
I don’t see how the current discussion relates with the topic at hand and my wish for the new year would be for us to find more appropriate threads for these tangential discussions.

Anyways, happy new year everyone!
 
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Building the infrastructure to electrify is expensive. Battery cost is dropping and recharge times are too. The math on these decisions is changing so fast it is hard to keep up in a ‘rule of thumb’ way. This will be a decade of massive changes to rules of thumb that have ruled our world since gasoline and diesel came out on top 100 years ago for private vehicles.

Batteries are indeed changing quickly. Catenary will always be cheaper though, where traffic levels justify it. The real value comes in service extension beyond the electrified corridor. For example, if GO electrifies the Kitchener line till Kitchener, that might be sufficient for VIA to use BEMUs to reach London.

We're already at the point that you could take two Tesla Model S battery packs and stick them on each coach to make BEMUs capable of traveling hundreds of miles. It's the charging speeds on those batteries that are the issue. But newer battery tech and super capacitors will change all this. I suspect BEMUs will be capable of the same range and speed as DEMUs at minimum, by the end of the decade. All that will be need is to build overhead catenary in the vicinity of the larger cities and their suburbs.
 
Batteries are indeed changing quickly. Catenary will always be cheaper though, where traffic levels justify it. The real value comes in service extension beyond the electrified corridor. For example, if GO electrifies the Kitchener line till Kitchener, that might be sufficient for VIA to use BEMUs to reach London.

We're already at the point that you could take two Tesla Model S battery packs and stick them on each coach to make BEMUs capable of traveling hundreds of miles. It's the charging speeds on those batteries that are the issue. But newer battery tech and super capacitors will change all this. I suspect BEMUs will be capable of the same range and speed as DEMUs at minimum, by the end of the decade. All that will be need is to build overhead catenary in the vicinity of the larger cities and their suburbs.

This is where the issue is, Battery technology and charging technology is not where it needs to be to be worth the extra step to it. Via has no real push for electric. I can see HFR route being built and using DMUs, not EMUs. I could see electrification happening over time there, but it wouldn't be turned on till it is complete. I also see this all happening after GO makes the transition. In the mean time, DMUs are it.
 
This is where the issue is, Battery technology and charging technology is not where it needs to be to be worth the extra step to it. Via has no real push for electric. I can see HFR route being built and using DMUs, not EMUs. I could see electrification happening over time there, but it wouldn't be turned on till it is complete. I also see this all happening after GO makes the transition. In the mean time, DMUs are it.

Why would they use DMUs? They have options for Siemens Charger locomotive and Venture carriages. They can simply exercise those.

I would argue that electrification makes no sense for VIA right now. Batteries and hydrogen fuel cells are really evolving quickly and will be where passenger rail operators need them to be in a decade. In the meantime, let GO and Exo build whatever overhead catenary is needed. VIA can take advantage of it later.
 
Why would they use DMUs? They have options for Siemens Charger locomotive and Venture carriages. They can simply exercise those.

I would argue that electrification makes no sense for VIA right now. Batteries and hydrogen fuel cells are really evolving quickly and will be where passenger rail operators need them to be in a decade. In the meantime, let GO and Exo build whatever overhead catenary is needed. VIA can take advantage of it later.

With the new purchase, why would they then in a decade swap them out? That is the issue. Via does not regularly replace their equipment. If they did then your thinking would make sense, as one day, they just switch over. Chances are, the next order after the Charger will be in at least 20 years, and by then GO likely will have most of the lines Via runs on converted to overhead wire.. At that point, we could see EMUs ordered for Via and the HFR be converted to overhead wires.

Battery MUs make sense in places that are not electrifying their lines, but are switching to electric.
 
With the new purchase, why would they then in a decade swap them out?

Never said they would. Said the technology would mature to the point that it might be competitive technologically and economically. I expect the Chargers to do at least 15 years. Probably 20-25 years.

That is the issue. Via does not regularly replace their equipment. If they did then your thinking would make sense, as one day, they just switch over

Keep in mind that the VIA of 10 years down the road will not be the VIA of today. HFR is supposed to double the size of VIA within 5 years after launch. And that might actually be conservative, if the transit investments in cities along the Corridor continue and if the carbon tax makes driving a lot more expensive ($170/tonne by 2030 as proposed by the Liberals a few weeks back). A larger VIA will have better access to both government and private capital. And will probably get more political support too. Hard to ignore a service which gets 10 million riders in the most vote rich region in the country.

A larger VIA would also have more opportunities to redeploy the fleet elsewhere. If capital becomes available through grants or some loan mechanism (like the CIB), they could use it to invest in new markets and then redeploy the Charger fleet. For example, if we get to 2030 and money is available for new corridors like Calgary-Edmonton and Moncton-Halifax, VIA could choose to redeploy the Charger/Venture sets there, while they move to BEMUs in the Corridor.

At that point, we could see EMUs ordered for Via and the HFR be converted to overhead wires.

Battery MUs make sense in places that are not electrifying their lines, but are switching to electric.

At the pace at which batteries, super capacitors and hydrogen fuel cells are improving, I don't think there will ever be a business case for end-to-end electrification. The most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that we'll see something like Kitchener-Toronto-Peterborough, Smiths Falls-Ottawa and Montreal-Quebec City electrified. Good portions of all those corridors relying on electrification by the commuter rail operators in those regions. And then all VIA needs are BEMUs capable of cover 200 km battery range at 200 kph, which should be available and affordable after 2030. Gaps where it's only VIA operating will be where the BEMUs go on to their batteries/fuel cells.
 
Keep in mind that the VIA of 10 years down the road will not be the VIA of today. HFR is supposed to double the size of VIA within 5 years after launch. And that might actually be conservative, if the transit investments in cities along the Corridor continue and if the carbon tax makes driving a lot more expensive ($170/tonne by 2030 as proposed by the Liberals a few weeks back). A larger VIA will have better access to both government and private capital. And will probably get more political support too. Hard to ignore a service which gets 10 million riders in the most vote rich region in the country.

A larger VIA would also have more opportunities to redeploy the fleet elsewhere. If capital becomes available through grants or some loan mechanism (like the CIB), they could use it to invest in new markets and then redeploy the Charger fleet. For example, if we get to 2030 and money is available for new corridors like Calgary-Edmonton and Moncton-Halifax, VIA could choose to redeploy the Charger/Venture sets there, while they move to BEMUs in the Corridor.

I see your thinking. I now see where it might make sense. There are a lot of "Ifs". If all of that happens, then it is reasonable that BEMUs could come to the Corridor. However, I doubt that will happen that quick.

At the pace at which batteries, super capacitors and hydrogen fuel cells are improving, I don't think there will ever be a business case for end-to-end electrification. The most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that we'll see something like Kitchener-Toronto-Peterborough, Smiths Falls-Ottawa and Montreal-Quebec City electrified. Good portions of all those corridors relying on electrification by the commuter rail operators in those regions. And then all VIA needs are BEMUs capable of cover 200 km battery range at 200 kph, which should be available and affordable after 2030. Gaps where it's only VIA operating will be where the BEMUs go on to their batteries/fuel cells.

The issue is whether the section of electrification are long enough to charge the batteries.
 

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