VIA Rail

[sacred]

The most important point that folks who don't use VIA Corridor services regularly don't seem to understand. They turn off a lot of users with poor performance. Which makes published times sort of useless, because mentally you're always budgeting for a delay.

A 3:15 train from Toronto to Ottawa and 4:45 train from Toronto to Montreal with > 90% on time performance (± 5 mins) will be worth more than the fastest trains on the schedule today, because it will be reliable, faster (compared to today) service for every train. No more mental schedule adjustments.

Some people are willing to try the corridor service, try it, hit a delay, and are turned off from every taking the train again. Beyond normal on-time-performance improvement, I also hope there can be worst-case delay improvements. An 8 hour delay on a 5 hour journey did not do me much good.

 

[Bordercollie]

Some people are willing to try the corridor service, try it, hit a delay, and are turned off from every taking the train again. Beyond normal on-time-performance improvement, I also hope there can be worst-case delay improvements. An 8 hour delay on a 5 hour journey did not do me much good.

I think that a 95+% on time rate would be pretty good. It's not only about travel times. Driving might be faster but you can't write emails while driving. It's not as efficient.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think that a 95+% on time rate would be pretty good. It's not only about travel times.

One big issue is how on time performance is defined. For example, in Renfe's refund policy, they give a 50% refund after a 15 min delay on their HSR trains and 50% for delays over 30 mins on other regional trains. Some of their trains have 100% refund for delays over 1 hr. VIA gives you a 50% refund after a 1 hr delay. Just imagine what a policy like Renfe's would do to VIA's budget. Post HFR, I'm hoping compensation will be offered for any delay longer than 15 mins.

Driving might be faster but you can't write emails while driving. It's not as efficient.

A proper non-HSR train service should be faster than driving though. Right now, even on schedules, VIA is maybe 15-20% faster than Greyhound or Coach Canada, and not faster door-to-door than driving. Makes the ticket prices hard to swallow.

 

[Bordercollie]

One big issue is how on time performance is defined. For example, in Renfe's refund policy, they give a 50% refund after a 15 min delay on their HSR trains and 50% for delays over 30 mins on other regional trains. Some of their trains have 100% refund for delays over 1 hr. VIA gives you a 50% refund after a 1 hr delay. Just imagine what a policy like Renfe's would do to VIA's budget. Post HFR, I'm hoping compensation will be offered for any delay longer than 15 mins.



A proper non-HSR train service should be faster than driving though. Right now, even on schedules, VIA is maybe 15-20% faster than Greyhound or Coach Canada, and not faster door-to-door than driving. Makes the ticket prices hard to swallow.

You are assuming that driving is faster based on a perfect day. Have you driven from Kitchener to Toronto in rush hour on a regular day? Or from Oshawa to Scarborough? Add one truck roll over and that could easily add an hour to your trip. That doesn't even include the traffic on the DVP which can take an hour on its own with one accident.

If the train can be consistent 95+% of the time at least you know what time you will arrive. Rather than leaving two hours early with the hope of being on time.

 

[kEiThZ]

You are assuming that driving is faster based on a perfect day. Have you driven from Kitchener to Toronto in rush hour on a regular day? Or from Oshawa to Scarborough? Add one truck roll over and that could easily add an hour to your trip. That doesn't even include the traffic on the DVP which can take an hour on its own with one accident.

That's true for the GTA and the surrounding communities. But HFR isn't about getting you from Kitchener to Toronto or from Scarborough to Ottawa.

 

[Bordercollie]

That's true for the GTA and the surrounding communities. But HFR isn't about getting you from Kitchener to Toronto or from Scarborough to Ottawa.

I don't think you get the point.

Let's say both you and the train leave for Ottawa from Toronto union station at 5pm on a Friday. Your goal is to get there faster by car. According to Google maps the fastest time is 4 hours 20 minutes. This is assuming you follow the speed limit and don't get into any traffic jams. During rush hour this trip could take you at least 5 hours, and that is only if the DVP has traffic. Assuming you don't hit anymore traffic or any accidents or a snow storm.

The drive from the DVP to Oshawa can easily take an hour during rush hour. By that time you go up the DVP to Oshawa the train would be in Belleville.

If you follow the speed limit there is no way you can catch the train.

That's why I'm saying that if the train can be on time more often it doesn't need to be able to make that trip in 3 hours.

Traffic is down slightly due to covid but when things get back to normal traffic is going to get worse not better.

If you can count on the train, people will use it even if it's slower or the same. Not everything is about speed.

 

[kEiThZ]

Forget hypotheticals. My regular trip is between Malvern in Scarborough and Vanier in Ottawa. I drive in 4.5 hrs with the wife and kid and one stop in the car. Maybe 5 hrs if there's traffic and my pre-schooler needs another break. Alternatively, I will travel on VIA between Ottawa and Guildwood stations. Fastest train available is 4:15 I believe. But it takes 20 mins to drive to Guildwood from Malvern. And 10 from to station in Ottawa. So the best case scenario for me is usually saving a few minutes. But HFR getting that down to 3 hrs flat would be a notable difference. It would make the trip faster door-to-door.

If you're just looking at downtown-to-downtown and only considering peak hour departures, sure the train wins handily. But this isn't how most people plan a trip. Flexibility matters. With a car, you can leave any time you want. For train service to be convenient, frequencies have to be high enough that you don't waste much time waiting around for the next departure. Most folks will also consider time to access the station and pre-boarding times. Do your downtown-to-downtown hypothetical trip with the above in mind and see how it works out.

Heck, VIA recognizes they have a tough time competing with driving. And HFR is meant at capturing drivers.

 

[lawwt]

This might get a bit off-topic but I think the car vs train timing also hinges a lot on last mile options at departure and arrival destinations and what options are incentivized.

My regular trip is Scarborough to downtown Montreal. By car it takes around 5 hours door to door. The train also takes around 5 hours to get from Guildwood to Gare Centrale. I'm lucky enough to be walking distance to Guildwood station and my end point in Montreal tends to be hell for parking. The relatively easy transfer point at Gare Centrale makes it more convenient and stress free for me to take the train than drive even though it'll take more time. Cities are going to have to work with HFR to further incentivize drivers to switch to the train by changing the calculus on what last mile option works best.

 

[micheal_can]

This might get a bit off-topic but I think the car vs train timing also hinges a lot on last mile options at departure and arrival destinations and what options are incentivized.

My regular trip is Scarborough to downtown Montreal. By car it takes around 5 hours door to door. The train also takes around 5 hours to get from Guildwood to Gare Centrale. I'm lucky enough to be walking distance to Guildwood station and my end point in Montreal tends to be hell for parking. The relatively easy transfer point at Gare Centrale makes it more convenient and stress free for me to take the train than drive even though it'll take more time. Cities are going to have to work with HFR to further incentivize drivers to switch to the train by changing the calculus on what last mile option works best.

No one thinks of the last mile. They look at their ticket, see the time and think that is how long it will take. They don't think of getting there, or getting to their final destination. Even driving. For example, We think of the drive in hours, not in hours and minutes. We say it takes 5 hours to get from Toronto to Montreal. But, how far does it take from an exact address in Toronto to an exact address in Montreal?

 

[robmausser]

No one thinks of the last mile. They look at their ticket, see the time and think that is how long it will take. They don't think of getting there, or getting to their final destination. Even driving. For example, We think of the drive in hours, not in hours and minutes. We say it takes 5 hours to get from Toronto to Montreal. But, how far does it take from an exact address in Toronto to an exact address in Montreal?

Totally, not even last mile, but with driving, the stopping for gas, food, bathrooms etc. Google Maps says "5:09" from Toronto to Montreal, but i've never been able to ever make that time. Don't even talk to me about when its the long weekend... 8h+

And then people look at their flight ticket and go "Oh only 1:30h to Montreal, WOW!" and neglect how it took them 3h to get to and from the airports, baggage, security, etc.

its like my friend who coudlnt figure out why he was always 15% over his financial spending budgets.... he never included sales tax!

People are willfully ignorant with things like this.

When HFR is built VIA should do an ad campaign with a split screen and someone taking the train, and the other screen taking a plane/car and all the headache that endures; getting through security, getting to the airport, traffic on the road, getting stuck in bad weather, stopping to eat, etc and the person on the train just chilling.

 

[micheal_can]

Totally, not even last mile, but with driving, the stopping for gas, food, bathrooms etc. Google Maps says "5:09" from Toronto to Montreal, but i've never been able to ever make that time. Don't even talk to me about when its the long weekend... 8h+

And then people look at their flight ticket and go "Oh only 1:30h to Montreal, WOW!" and neglect how it took them 3h to get to and from the airports, baggage, security, etc.

its like my friend who coudlnt figure out why he was always 15% over his financial spending budgets.... he never included sales tax!

People are willfully ignorant with things like this.

When HFR is built VIA should do an ad campaign with a split screen and someone taking the train, and the other screen taking a plane/car and all the headache that endures; getting through security, getting to the airport, traffic on the road, getting stuck in bad weather, stopping to eat, etc and the person on the train just chilling.

What they really should have is a race with politicians taking different modes. Show how long each method really takes.

 

[kEiThZ]

No one thinks of the last mile. They look at their ticket, see the time and think that is how long it will take. They don't think of getting there, or getting to their final destination.

They absolutely do. Which is why you'll hear so often, "Driving is faster.". Implicit in that response is the inclusion of the last mile trip.

Cities are going to have to work with HFR to further incentivize drivers to switch to the train by changing the calculus on what last mile option works best.

Not seeing how they can. Most of HFRs proposed stations are existing stations with established connections to transport networks. They won't be able to change connections at stations in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal. Maybe Peterborough can build a transit hub at their station. The hypothetical Eglinton station improves on Guildwood a bit by adding an Eglinton LRT connection to Lakeshore East access. Would be about 600m from a potential subway station at Danforth/Eglinton.

Other than that capital investment is needed to bolster the suburban stations. But not sure how much it adds. Extending the Confederation Line in Ottawa to Fallowfield, and the REM to Dorval in Montreal, would help accessibility a bit. Not sure it would massively bolster last mile trips though. It would just help specific sets of riders.

 

[Darwinkgo]

In travel time conversations, we're missing the frequency side of the speed equation. Having the potential to add enough capacity that 99% of the time one can just show up and get on the next train is significant, as is having the next train being within an hour. That flexibility doesn't exist for air travel for all except power users (and since the flexibility doesnt, the frequency of air travel doesnt matter in the same way).

As for suburb to suburb travel as a use case, it is almost a fallacy the opposite of the subway to the sea/airport problem (people can see using it occassionally to alleviating a frustrating experience - driving to and finding parking at the beach/airport so therefor it must be useful transit). TBH HFR isn't going to be capturing very many families of four traveling for a friends, family or leisure trip. (the fallacy - people can't see transit working for them so therefor it must be bad) That is ok. It doesn't mean HFR is bad. Just as it doesn't mean a subway to the sea is good.

There are lots of people it will work for. The Report for the JPO will project whether HFR will work for enough people to profit maximize and pay for as much of the capital cost as possible.

 

[micheal_can]

They absolutely do. Which is why you'll hear so often, "Driving is faster.". Implicit in that response is the inclusion of the last mile trip.

I group the "last mile" of everything as anything that makes the journey longer than the stated time. Congestion, accidents, pee breaks, etc are all ""last mile" issues with driving.

 

[ec_traindriver]

The "last-mile problem" isn't just a Canadian problem. I've argued with many people who are convinced that driving A to B would still be the best option, even with a train departing every 15 minutes for their destination. Others simply drive to suburb metro/underground stations, and then change to public transport, no matter the fact they live beside a rail station with at least a train departing every 30 minutes from 5 AM to 10 PM.

If anything, city officials should encourage their people to simply leave their cars at home, not VIA. After all, that choice lies more in the municipal government's ability to provide their citizens with alternatives both regarding transit and, most importantly, urban development. I don't know if Canada has the same stupid law regarding zoning and parking the USA has, but elsewhere in the world municipalities have realized that the only way to get people out of their cars and cars out of the roads is to eliminate free parking (especially in the city centers) and introducing congestion pricing. As I've said, this is something VIA cannot control.