VIA Rail

[micheal_can]

I sincerely wish that VIA launches a study on HFR for Edmonton-Calgary-Lethbridge. I may not agree with most of the complaints of Albertans. But I sympathize with the view that they feel a bit hard done by with having to contribute so much to the federation and get a lot less in return federally. Toronto and the GTA have a similar imbalance with Ontario and Canada. A massive VIA project that connects their province better would vastly improve the image of the federal government there. It's supportable on political grounds alone. Probably supportable on fiscal grounds too. Worth doing a similar in-depth study as what is being done for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec.

It is interesting how things like this could actually quell the western alienation that is going on. Pipelines would work, but rail has a lower carbon footprint to it.

 

[ssiguy2]

You mean the metros where the bulk of the Liberal caucus comes from? A third of the Liberal caucus is from the GTA. Two thirds are from the three metros mentioned.



What do cabinet appointments have to do with rail investment?



Sometimes it's just about putting in competent people in cabinet. Not just which city they come from.

Ministers always have huge influence on political decisions regardless of their portfolio so the 600,000 of Halton will do very well and the 1.5 million people of SWO not so much. London in particular has always been a bastion of Liberal support both federally and provincially and yet are ignored when the chips are down. This will now be made even more extreme now as Ford's government got into power thanks to the GTA as neither London nor Windsor gave him any seats but rather went NDP and Liberal as normal.

Any expansion of VIA service is 100% a political decision and without any cabinet posts, their voices will not be heard. Trudeau's {and hence VIA's} decision making will be completely dominated by Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa to the detriment of everywhere else.

 

[littlewill1166]

Ministers always have huge influence on political decisions regardless of their portfolio so the 600,000 of Halton will do very well and the 1.5 million people of SWO not so much. London in particular has always been a bastion of Liberal support both federally and provincially and yet are ignored when the chips are down. This will now be made even more extreme now as Ford's government got into power thanks to the GTA as neither London nor Windsor gave him any seats but rather went NDP and Liberal as normal.

Any expansion of VIA service is 100% a political decision and without any cabinet posts, their voices will not be heard. Trudeau's {and hence VIA's} decision making will be completely dominated by Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa to the detriment of everywhere else.

Honestly, I think that VIA should worry more about interprovincial routes Ontario-Quebec and leave the interprovincial routes up to the individual provinces. The province is already working on a transportation plan for SWO that's going to be released any day now. Let's wait for that to come out. https://www.chathamdailynews.ca/new...e-on-regional-transportation-plan-experts-say

 

[micheal_can]

Ministers always have huge influence on political decisions regardless of their portfolio so the 600,000 of Halton will do very well and the 1.5 million people of SWO not so much. London in particular has always been a bastion of Liberal support both federally and provincially and yet are ignored when the chips are down. This will now be made even more extreme now as Ford's government got into power thanks to the GTA as neither London nor Windsor gave him any seats but rather went NDP and Liberal as normal.

Any expansion of VIA service is 100% a political decision and without any cabinet posts, their voices will not be heard. Trudeau's {and hence VIA's} decision making will be completely dominated by Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa to the detriment of everywhere else.

I would argue that Trudeau might do the reverse. He needs to pander to the ones that didn't vote for him so that he can go to the next election and say "See, I ddid things for you". This is the best time for western expansion of VIA. Something akin to The Dominion could return. If done right, they could alternate it and the Canadian such that every day, a train goes across the Prairies between Vancouver and Toronto.

 

[smallspy]

Uhhh, that doesn't sound very safe. At least VIA has at least two engineers in the cab instead of one like on Amtrak for their corridor routes.

They've been operating this way for over 150 years. It seems to work okay.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

Given the quantity of points I'd like to comment on, I'll try to structure my response a bit:

#1 About the REM

I've spoken to lots of folks in and around Montreal area, and there is a real sense of pride in the project especially now that most people are able to see real infrastructure going up around the city - Eduard Mont-Petit station, Mcgill Station, Highway 40 elevated tracks - all proceeding at good a pace.

It seems to me that you haven't talked to people currently commuting on the Deux-Montagnes and Mascouche lines, i.e. people who's commute is already affected by the (construction of) the REM:

Deux-Montagnes commuters frustrated by REM construction pains
CTV Montreal - Published Tuesday, October 23, 2018 5:33PM EDT

AS REM CONSTRUCTION RAMPS UP, COMMUTERS PROMISED BUSES, BUT WARNED OF HEADACHES TO COME
BENSON COOK - Thursday, February 28th 2019 - 5:55 pm

MORE BAD NEWS FOR DEUX-MONTAGNES TRAIN COMMUTERS
ELIZABETH ZOGALIS - Monday, March 4th 2019 - 4:24 am

Deux-Montagnes commuters take their REM protest to Central Station
Shuttle buses linking displaced train users to other bus routes or métro stations are adding 40 minutes to their daily trips, commuters complain.
PRESSE CANADIENNE - Updated: April 1, 2019

Deux-Montagnes residents demand postponement of REM
Some frustrated commuters want the work put off until better measures are put in place to mitigate disruptions on the existing rail line.
JASON MAGDER, MONTREAL GAZETTE - Updated: September 17, 2019

Deux-Montagnes line users plead with Legault to declare moratorium on REM work
BY SHAKTI LANGLOIS-ORTEGA GLOBAL NEWS - Posted September 26, 2019 8:37 am

REM will kill Mascouche commuter train, critics predict
"Without a direct connection to downtown, a lot of people are probably going to end up taking their car."
LINDA GYULAI, MONTREAL GAZETTE
Updated: September 26, 2019

Mitigation measures announced for frustrated commuters worried about REM delays, detours
Andrew BrennanAssignment Editor / Videojournalist - Published Friday, November 8, 2019 5:36PM EST

I believe part of the current HFR study is how HFR will interact with REM.

Correct, which is why I can't really talk much about the REM here, but to those of you who wonder whether outsourcing the conception and planning (yes, not just the funding, construction and operation) of transit projects from provincial agencies or any level of government to private-sector pension funds is desirable, I highly recommend the following article:

The Réseau Express Métropolitain: the multi-billion dollar light rail project Montreal never asked for
By Taylor Noakes (November 13, 2019)


#2 About Quebec-Montreal

For about 600 passengers a day between QC-MTL. A billion $ for 600 passengers a day, passengers who already have a service being provided that is underused.

Reality check: there are 10 trains offered between Quebec and Montreal on a typical day (5 trains per direction, from Monday to Friday) and 60 passengers (per train) is barely enough to fill one single car, which would translate to a load factor of roughly 25%, assuming 4-car trains, which would be less than half of the system-wide load factor of 57%, which VIA reports in its Annual Report 2018...

Orléans Express which is as fast and is direct has cut frequency so I doubt that VIA will manage to turn things around.

Which hints at what explanation? That travel demand between the two ever-growing metropolitan areas is shrinking or that the intercity bus struggles to stay competitive against the other modes available in this travel market (e.g. driving or taking the train)?


#3 About serving rural populations

But part of it; and part of the reason some populations stagnate rather than grow is lack of certain services, such as healthcare (many small towns won't have access to cancer treatment, or MRIs or any number of forms of medical specialty.; likewise access to post-secondary education is an impediment and so is transit in so far as that impairs the preceding or the ability of some to get to/from a given job.)

That doesn't mean we built inter-city rail service or higher order transit to everywhere; anymore than we're going to put a teaching hospital in Bobcaygeon. But we also don't fail to provide medical and education services there at a basic level; and we ought to explore greater access to those same services through telemedicine and elearning and so on. Likewise some level of transit and intercity transportation is somewhere between profoundly useful and necessity to most smaller communities.

It is of course, striking the right balance and prioritizing limited funds thoughtfully that is key.

But that shouldn't used as an excuse to abdicate public responsibility either.

Exactly, the loss of connectivity to essential services which was previously provided by Greyhound is a catastrophe for rural Canada and the obvious solution is to restore bus services with public service agreements (PSAs) jointly issued (and subsidised) by the federal and provincial governments, not expanding VIA service to every city!


#4 About backwards-facing seats

I like how they don't even answer properly. Turnable seats are standard in Asia...

Via just being lazy with their answers and trying to skirt the NO answer. Honestly though, why doesnt NA ever consider flippable/rotatable seats for their trains?

Turnable seats are completely unknown to passengers in Europe (I challenge you to name a single rail service without 50:50 seating) and their trains don't exactly have a reputation for being backward and outdated...

Moi aussi. It's the poor man's solution to the actually meeting space that's offered on higher end services. But it sucks to get assigned that seat when you don't want it.

My personal preference is - I hate quads. Don't turn your seat to face mine. But half the railways in the world insist on 'em. People in other places sure seem to get by that way.

I closely follow VIA's Twitter account and you are far from alone in your hate of being seated in quads. However, as someone who regularly travels with friends or family, we absolutely love the quads. In fact, I happened to travel with my wife, our one-year old baby and a friend when I read your comment and there is no question why we prefer travelling on quads, because it's much more spacious and sociable. Therefore, VIA's reservation system seems to assign quad seats only to bookings of at least 3 people, unless all other seats are taken, which means that your train was most likely booked out whenever you found yourself assigned to a quad. Quads might be annoying for solo travellers like yourself, but they definitely serve passengers travelling together as groups of 3 and more, so as long as you are not (usually) forced to sit in them, why exactly is their presence a problem for you...?


Okay, that's all I have time for now, but I'll try to reply to some more recent points tomorrow...

 

[crs1026]

Turnable seats are completely unknown to passengers in Europe (I challenge you to name a single rail service without 50:50 seating) and their trains don't exactly have a reputation for being backward and outdated...

No question about it - it is definitely the norm. I do recall being on a platform somewhere over there not too long ago where my spouse nudged me and said, "Look, they are turning all the seats!". So I know some are turnable. I'm pretty sure that Norwegian Rail turn their seats rather than turn their equipment. Seems to me Oslo-Bergen might have been the trip I remember where there was a free-for-all when one passenger figured out how to turn seats, and everybody else wanted theirs turned also.
But those cases are the exception not the rule.

Quads might be annoying for solo travellers like yourself, but they definitely serve passengers travelling together as groups of 3 and more, so as long as you are not (usually) forced to sit in them, why exactly is there presence a problem for you...?

I have no problem with VIA offering quads for those who appreciate them. I agree, if you are travelling with others, they are great. Just so long as I know that's what I'm getting. And I don't attribute any of the things i don't like about quads to VIA specifically, other than maybe how they have quads in Skyline domes. I'm not above desperate measures to get to sit at the front of a dome ;-)

I'm not completely antisocial, but quads do have their own ettiquette challenges. Such as - Sharing the table; figuring out whether you and your partner get one window and one aisle seat, or whether the first to arrive get both window seats and second to arrive get both aisle seats; deciding who gets to face forwards and who faces backwards. Managing garbage and hand luggage.....see sharing the table, above ;-) VIA's way of numbering seats does alleviate much of this, but not all overseas operators do.

Some of the people I have met in quads made an entire journey memorable, and I still correspond with a couple by email. But others not so much. Mileage varies. I just like the predictability and calm of staring at the seatback ahead (or behind) of me, and not having to make more introductions than I care to at that moment.

- Paul

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Given the quantity of points I'd like to comment on, I'll try to structure my response a bit:

#1 About the REM


It seems to me that you haven't talked to people currently commuting on the Deux-Montagnes and Mascouche lines, i.e. people who's commute is already affected by the (construction of) the REM:

Deux-Montagnes commuters frustrated by REM construction pains
CTV Montreal - Published Tuesday, October 23, 2018 5:33PM EDT

AS REM CONSTRUCTION RAMPS UP, COMMUTERS PROMISED BUSES, BUT WARNED OF HEADACHES TO COME
BENSON COOK - Thursday, February 28th 2019 - 5:55 pm

MORE BAD NEWS FOR DEUX-MONTAGNES TRAIN COMMUTERS
ELIZABETH ZOGALIS - Monday, March 4th 2019 - 4:24 am

Deux-Montagnes commuters take their REM protest to Central Station
Shuttle buses linking displaced train users to other bus routes or métro stations are adding 40 minutes to their daily trips, commuters complain.
PRESSE CANADIENNE - Updated: April 1, 2019

Deux-Montagnes residents demand postponement of REM
Some frustrated commuters want the work put off until better measures are put in place to mitigate disruptions on the existing rail line.
JASON MAGDER, MONTREAL GAZETTE - Updated: September 17, 2019

Deux-Montagnes line users plead with Legault to declare moratorium on REM work
BY SHAKTI LANGLOIS-ORTEGA GLOBAL NEWS - Posted September 26, 2019 8:37 am

REM will kill Mascouche commuter train, critics predict
"Without a direct connection to downtown, a lot of people are probably going to end up taking their car."
LINDA GYULAI, MONTREAL GAZETTE
Updated: September 26, 2019

Mitigation measures announced for frustrated commuters worried about REM delays, detours
Andrew BrennanAssignment Editor / Videojournalist - Published Friday, November 8, 2019 5:36PM EST

I'm not talking about media reports. I'm more referring to my conversations with people living in the MTL area, my work colleagues, and others who are affected by the new REM system. Overall, the sentiment I got was very positive and supportive, in that everyone agrees that it is the largest infrastructure project undertaken in Montreal for decades and most people want to see it come to fruition, despite the massive interruptions on the existing commuter train lines.

For sure, if you just rely on google news and search for media reports of the REM, you are going to get the typical laundry list of complaints and problems. That's what the media does on a day to day basis and how they generate viewership. Don't think that needs further explaining on a forum like this.

 

[robmausser]

I sincerely wish that VIA launches a study on HFR for Edmonton-Calgary-Lethbridge. I may not agree with most of the complaints of Albertans. But I sympathize with the view that they feel a bit hard done by with having to contribute so much to the federation and get a lot less in return federally. Toronto and the GTA have a similar imbalance with Ontario and Canada. A massive VIA project that connects their province better would vastly improve the image of the federal government there. It's supportable on political grounds alone. Probably supportable on fiscal grounds too. Worth doing a similar in-depth study as what is being done for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec.

I'm not sure if an HFR type service could be done between Edmonton-Calgary, at least not on the cheap like with the HFR for Ontario/Quebec.

The HFR proposal uses old rail rights-of-ways, so that land acquisition is affordable.

I dont see any such opportunities between Calgary/Edmonton.

All that exist are 2 active lines by CN and CP.

So for now I think the most you could hope for is a service like what already exists in Ontario.

A dedicated HSR line between the two cities would be very expensive, and i'd imagine it would most likely be a Alberta project, with funding from the Federal government, separate from VIA

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm not sure if an HFR type service could be done between Edmonton-Calgary, at least not on the cheap like with the HFR for Ontario/Quebec.

The HFR proposal uses old rail rights-of-ways, so that land acquisition is affordable.

I dont see any such opportunities between Calgary/Edmonton.

All that exist are 2 active lines by CN and CP.

So for now I think the most you could hope for is a service like what already exists in Ontario.

A dedicated HSR line between the two cities would be very expensive, and i'd imagine it would most likely be a Alberta project, with funding from the Federal government, separate from VIA

To be clear when I say building HFR, I don't just mean reusing an old corridor. I mean building a non-high speed high frequency rail service. Even if that costs $3-4 billion, it's defensible as an investment which helps Alberta boost its economy and reduces emissions at the same time. Calgary-Edmonton is a pretty busy aviation corridor.

This touches on another point. So much talk about HFR has been about the business case and passenger numbers. Why is nobody from the government (political side not the bureaucracy) talking about emissions and how we need to invest in rail to actually reduce the emissions intensity of intercity travel?

 

[Northern Light]

Not directly tied to VIA, but I see Europe inching towards more High-Speed Freight Rail - 180km/ph freight trains. (Italy, Switzerland); could the case for HSR/HFR be better made if passenger trains had a monopoly from 6am-12am, but high-speed freights could run in the overnight window?

Mercitalia Fast service: the world’s first high-speed rail freight service

In November, Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane inaugurated the Mercitalia Fast service, the world’s first high-speed rail service dedicated to freight.

www.railway-technology.com

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Why is nobody from the government (political side not the bureaucracy) talking about emissions and how we need to invest in rail to actually reduce the emissions intensity of intercity travel?

Or a better question, why aren't they stressing the need to create an alternative AND competitive mode of transportation between the country's most densely populated towns and cities? The current duopoly by air and bus companies is a travesty (most times the only people able to afford flying between Billy Bishop and YUL are business travelers who don't care about paying $600+ for a round trip 50 min flight, while the lower classes get the Megabus treatment).

 

[crs1026]

This touches on another point. So much talk about HFR has been about the business case and passenger numbers. Why is nobody from the government (political side not the bureaucracy) talking about emissions and how we need to invest in rail to actually reduce the emissions intensity of intercity travel?

Actually, the promotional material that VIA has put forward has certainly highlighted this.

As for the pols, I have yet to hear any MP say much positive about HFR, on any grounds.

The political strategy, if there is one beyond following the path of least resistance, may be to get the business case facts cemented in the court of public opinion. Once that soak is over, one can then argue the green benefits as either grounds for subsidy or (more optimistically) use it as the "insurance goal".

Had they done the opposite, there would be accusations from opponents that the numbers were sketchy and merely made up to buttress "another Liberal virtue-signalling project". Shopping the numbers mercilessly with the financial community first gives them a credibility we may need eventually.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Not directly tied to VIA, but I see Europe inching towards more High-Speed Freight Rail - 180km/ph freight trains. (Italy, Switzerland); could the case for HSR/HFR be better made if passenger trains had a monopoly from 6am-12am, but high-speed freights could run in the overnight window?

Mercitalia Fast service: the world’s first high-speed rail freight service

In November, Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane inaugurated the Mercitalia Fast service, the world’s first high-speed rail service dedicated to freight.

www.railway-technology.com

Because generally freight is not time-sensitive in the same way that passengers are. The only real type that is traditionally has been mail, and even there volumes have been dropping.

For instance, SNCF and France's La Poste discontinued their TGV Poste service several years ago. And in Britain, the class 325 postal EMUs have been on-again, on-again in terms of service for quite a while now. (It seems to be back on for now.)

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

I'm not sure if an HFR type service could be done between Edmonton-Calgary, at least not on the cheap like with the HFR for Ontario/Quebec.

The HFR proposal uses old rail rights-of-ways, so that land acquisition is affordable.

I dont see any such opportunities between Calgary/Edmonton.

All that exist are 2 active lines by CN and CP.

So for now I think the most you could hope for is a service like what already exists in Ontario.

A dedicated HSR line between the two cities would be very expensive, and i'd imagine it would most likely be a Alberta project, with funding from the Federal government, separate from VIA

To go from nothing to what exists between Toronto and Montreal would be fantastic!

Calgary is the 4th largest metro area and has no intercity rail.
Regina is 18th, same thing.

List of census metropolitan areas and agglomerations in Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Run trains on existing infrastructure. If they are comparable to driving, and costs no worse than flying, it will be a success.