VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

Government is big, processes are complex, and this stuff is not all easy. VIA is a crown corporation. They are moving at their speed.

Government is big and slow. But this is not the issue here. The issue here is that the Harper government and then the Trudeau government never prioritized even funding proper study of the idea. Why $70 million for a study announced just 8 months before the election. What the hell were they doing for the previous 3 years? They ran on building infrastructure in 2015 on deficit financing with "small deficits" of $10 billion per year for three years. They couldn't find $70 million to fund that study out of the $80+ billion in deficits they ended up running in that term?

Their rural base will be against it and raise a stink (like they did with the Toronto to London stretch provincially).

I think the bigger issue with SWO farmers was the severing of farms and loss of land. There's probably less of that in this case since it's largely using an existing corridor and going through forest.

I also have to wonder if anyone is quietly looking at HFR West. A Lethbridge-Calgary-Edmonton rail service might soften some blows right now. The economic case may actually be tolerable to supportive.

Calgary-Edmonton beyond a doubt has a business case. It's probably as strong as Toronto-Ottawa. Lethbridge would be a good bonus.

 

[kEiThZ]

Via’s high frequency rail link from Toronto to Quebec raises safety concerns

Anti-crash system required in U.S. and recommended for Canada not part of planned passenger train link

www.thestar.com

Article highlighting the absence of PTC from VIA's HFR proposal. Also Paul Langan of HSR note is on them about the proposed speed.

Screw Paul Lanagan and his purist BS. I'd rather have HFR by 2030 than HSR never. He can whine all he wants, but the bulk of the public and the political class is just not supportive of the idea of spending tens of billions on HSR. We may get there after we build HFR. This is what Paul Lanagan doesn't get.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think the bigger issue with SWO farmers was the severing of farms and loss of land. There's probably less of that in this case since it's largely using an existing corridor and going through forest.

That maybe, but you have a different beast that could be at play in this case - i.e. communities along the existing corridor. Most of those are in ridings that went Conservative - and I bet you they'd want to weaponize this and turn it into urbanites want to deprive "rural" communities of their rail access, manifest destiny, yadda, yadda.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Screw Paul Lanagan and his purist BS. I'd rather have HFR by 2030 than HSR never. He can whine all he wants, but the bulk of the public and the political class is just not supportive of the idea of spending tens of billions on HSR. We may get there after we build HFR. This is what Paul Lanagan doesn't get.

NP with your position.

But I do think, even if for the wrong reasons, he's raising a legitimate point in respect of PTC.

Since the U.S. is imposing this as a requirement across mainline railways there's no real reason we shouldn't be too.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

At the risk of sounding naive, one has to believe that the Cons are holding strategy sessions on “how to win hearts and minds of urban voters in the east”. I’m not sure they will oppose this project when the next election inevitably arrives. It’s not that expensive.

There’s no doubt that Ottawa (collectively) is ragging the puck on this one. The Liberals, having been cut back to a minority, certainly aren’t going to make big splashy announcements that favour Ontario and Quebec. It’s frustrating, but a couple years more of study may be the only way to save this proposal.

Getting all this paperwork done is an interesting bit of “thin edge of the wedge”.... at some point, if the media has done enough talking about this, people may just assume it’s happening and not notice the actual announcement. It would be ironic if this project were kicked off in a low-key way, ie the direct opposite style to a DelDuca transit photo op binge.

I also have to wonder if anyone is quietly looking at HFR West. A Lethbridge-Calgary-Edmonton rail service might soften some blows right now. The economic case may actually be tolerable to supportive.

- Paul

But the provincial conservatives could exert some pressure on the federal conservatives to support this in order to retain/gain support on the provincial level. Yes I realize the ONT PC's are not exactly linked to the Federal Conservatives as they were in the pre Reform days but there is still some communication along that chain. And supporting this could get both parties brownie points.

 

[kEiThZ]

he's raising a legitimate point in respect of PTC.

No he isn't. He's flinging shit to cast HFR in a bad light. HFR doesn't even have a proper route study done. How does he know there's no plans for PTC on that corridor?

 

[kEiThZ]

That maybe, but you have a different beast that could be at play in this case - i.e. communities along the existing corridor. Most of those are in ridings that went Conservative - and I bet you they'd want to weaponize this and turn it into urbanites want to deprive "rural" communities of their rail access, manifest destiny, yadda, yadda.

AoD

Could happen. But after the solid suburban whooping that the CPC received, I am going to bet that the Conservatives will take the hits from their rural base. HFR is always portrayed as a project benefiting cities. But the largest beneficiaries are the suburban areas of all those metros and Peterborough. The number of trains stopping in Scarborough (at Eglinton) and Fallowfield and Laval and Peterborough skyrockets. Conservatives aren't going to toss aside support in blue-leaning suburbs like Kanata and Barrhaven and Oshawa to run up the score in a handful of rural sapphire blue ridings.

What I bet we'll see instead is an effort to portray Lakeshore towns and cities (Kingston, Belleville, etc.) as victims. Votes and seats to be gained there. And maybe even an attempt to delay the thing enough so it finished on their watch, letting them claim credit. There's arguably some legitimate complaints too. No GTA East station has been proposed aside from Eglinton.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Could happen. But after the solid suburban whooping that the CPC received, I am going to bet that the Conservatives will take the hits from their rural base. What I bet we'll see instead is an effort to portray Lakeshore towns and cities (Kingston, Belleville, etc.) as victims. Votes and seats to be gained there. And maybe even an attempt to delay the thing enough so it finished on their watch, letting them claim credit.

HFR is always portrayed as a project benefiting cities. But the largest beneficiaries are the suburban areas of all those metros and Peterborough. Conservatives aren't going to toss aside support in blue-leaning suburbs like Kanata and Barrhaven and Oshawa to run up the score in a handful of rural sapphire blue ridings.

I don't know if HFR is ever a make or break for suburban ridings. Unfortunately intercity train isn't really a thing for most people in the burbs (just look at Scheer's wish list for the minority government).

AoD

 

[micheal_can]

I also have to wonder if anyone is quietly looking at HFR West. A Lethbridge-Calgary-Edmonton rail service might soften some blows right now. The economic case may actually be tolerable to supportive.

- Paul

Calgary-Edmonton beyond a doubt has a business case. It's probably as strong as Toronto-Ottawa. Lethbridge would be a good bonus.

I have been saying for years that it is silly that there is such low passenger rail outside of the Corridor. HFR outside of the corridor at this point does not make sense. Turning all trains into daily each way, would be a great start. Adding a line between Calgary and Edmonton would also make sense. If they were to bring back the old CP Dominion route, that would also make sense.

Doing these 3 things alone would show the West that Ottawa cares and might win them a few seats next election(whenever it may be).

 

[crs1026]

PTC is actually the example I have been looking for to drag into the hydrogen/battery debate thread. (And no, I'm not trying to drag that debate over here). It is an absolutely desirable and eventually essential technology, that was rolled out too quickly in the US before many bugs were worked out.
Ask any American railroader about PTC, and all you will get is invective. Plenty of Canadian locomotives are now equipped with it, because they regularly run into the US and need it for that territory. But it continues to be unreliable, even though loss of life sadly continues to happen because it is not available or not working.

Canada has wisely not jumped on the PTC bandwagon - just yet. For all PTC's benefits, that is a prudent decision while the bugs need fixing.

And yes, I think Langan is doing VIA a disservice by grandstanding against HFR, his agenda clearly being to advocate for HSR instead. I have said my share about what's not great about HFR, but ultimately I am convinced that without HFR we will never see HSR in our lifetimes in this country. It's the better horse to back.

- Paul

 

[littlewill1166]

I swear that VIA already has some type of GPS based quasi-PTC, speed enforcement technology already (probably doesn't work for signals though).

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't know if HFR is ever a make or break for suburban ridings. Unfortunately intercity train isn't really a thing for most people in the burbs (just look at Scheer's wish list for the minority government).

AoD

It's not make or break. But it's easy to argue that the Conservatives are taking away something you benefit from. And VIA's importance is very disproportionate. It's most important to Ottawa and Peterborough. Less important to Scarborough. Probably important to Casselman, Alexandria, Laval, Trois-Rivières and Québec City. Depending on where GTA East would land, there could be Durham or Markham ridings to impacted too.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well as normal, our Cabinet is basically just a tale of 3 cities, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa. Needless to say any improvements to SW Ontario for VIA are a no-go. London and Windsor both got shut out of Cabinet posts but somehow Halton managed 3.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well as normal, our Cabinet is basically just a tale of 3 cities, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa.

You mean the metros where the bulk of the Liberal caucus comes from? A third of the Liberal caucus is from the GTA. Two thirds are from the three metros mentioned.

Needless to say any improvements to SW Ontario for VIA are a no-go.

What do cabinet appointments have to do with rail investment?

London and Windsor both got shut out of Cabinet posts but somehow Halton managed 3.

Sometimes it's just about putting in competent people in cabinet. Not just which city they come from.

 

[YCMYHM]

Well as normal, our Cabinet is basically just a tale of 3 cities, Montreal, Toronto, and Ottawa. Needless to say any improvements to SW Ontario for VIA are a no-go. London and Windsor both got shut out of Cabinet posts but somehow Halton managed 3.

Welcome to population density ?