VIA Rail

[Bureaucromancer]

With the withdrawal of Greyhound I'm thinking we might actually be getting near the point a Federal bus system could actually be politically possible... Launch a fairly barebones network connecting to VIA where possible and otherwise focussing on transit hubs and airports, with roughly twice daily (as in one day one night service), timed connections and integration with Ontario Northland on each of:

• Vancouver - Calgary
• Vancouver - Edmonton
• Edmonton - Saskatoon - Regina
• Calgary - Regina
• Prince Albert - Saskatoon - Regina - Winnipeg
• Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - Sault Ste. Marie*
• Fredericton - Saint John - Moncton - Charlottetown*
• Truro - Sydney - Port aux Basques - St. John's*

*Yeah, these are artificially through routed to make them interprovincial
And you get a national network, hit most of the more viable routes Greyhound abandoned without proper replacement, connects fairly well with what rail service is relevant and operates entirely interprovincially, so hopefully more viable politically than something that looks like todays VIA rail. It wouldn't make a mint, but this doesn't have to be a huge expense either, especially if it's contracted to regional operators and strongly hinted to provinces that transit funding is contingent on feeding it.

It also strikes me that some sort of Postbus operation would fit Canada very well, although mashing Canada Post and VIA together would be something of a nightmare I suspect.

Suffice to say I reject the notion that there is no place for ground transportation outside corridor services, or that long distance ground transportation must necessarily be similar in ticket price to airfare.

 

[Fritter]

This is an excellent idea but it should be broadened in scope to include inter-city buses

VIA in the past had single ticketing agreements with Bus transportation providers. I once had VIA tickets to go to Charlottetown and it included the bus connection from Moncton, to Charlottetown. I also remember bus connections VIA offered from Coburg to Peterborough and Saskatoon to Prince Albert.

 

[kEiThZ]

With the withdrawal of Greyhound I'm thinking we might actually be getting near the point a Federal bus system could actually be politically possible...

Suffice to say I reject the notion that there is no place for ground transportation outside corridor services, or that long distance ground transportation must necessarily be similar in ticket price to airfare.

There's plenty of room to offer all sorts of services. The question is one of money. Who's going to pay the cost? Because there's no way a Prince Albert-Saskatoon-Regina-Winnipeg bus is going to come even close to breaking even.

The provinces (particularly out west) have neglected their responsibility to develop intraprovincial public transport services and now expect the feds to pick up the cost. Screw that. And if this idea ever came to pass and VIA was involved, the inevitable outcome when VIA's operating deficit ballooned would be a cut to rail services by any future fiscally concerned government. VIA should limit itself to interlining with bus operators throughout the country and encourage transit agencies and intercity bus operators to set up at stations.

 

[crs1026]

This is an excellent idea but it should be broadened in scope to include inter-city buses. One of my complaints about VIA is that it is a train company when it, if it REALLY wanted to serve Canadians, should be a transportation company. To use London as an example, someone from St.Thomas a city of 42,000 that actually borders the City of London, has absolutely no access to VIA service because there are no buses that connect the 2.

No argument. VIA should have a feeder bus network. VIA need not be the operator, but they may need to be the smart buyer to line up the routes and define a possible level of subsidy. Ideally this would be a provincial mandate except that, well, you know.....provinces and Ottawa don't connect the way they ought to.

I have never supported VIA rail in the West despite living here because I know a waste of money when I see it. Out here people view VIA as a transportation option as much as people in Niagara Falls view the Maiden of the Mist as one............to say it is completely irrelevant is an insult to word irrelevant. This however would change dramatically if VIA didn't just offer train service but bus service as well to connect different communities together as well as connect them to the nearest VIA train station.

I’m not so sure. Suppose for example a Calgary-Edmonton HFR emerged. Would it make sense that only that backbone be rail? I can see service to Lethbridge being a logical extension. There are numerous secondary lines that extend out of Winnipeg, Brandon, Regina, Saskatoon that could offer a basic service without too much upgrading.

The key is to not focus on the two transcontinental main lines, which don't really connect all that many places and which the railways are very protective towards. The CP Northern line parallels the CN main line, often within sight of each other, for an awfully good distance. It would be possible to restore some sidings on this line and operate at modest speed, perhaps not as fast as one could drive but as an alternative to driving. (In fact, CP offered this line to VIA as an alternative to running with delays on the CN main line, but VIA didn't bite). There might not be a comprehensive network, but bus could certainly fill in where rail can't connect or isn't viable.

@kEiThZ reminded us - weather is not always fun out there. I believe plenty of people would gladly trade the drive for a reliable, if not speedy, method of transportation. Many would not, but don't let those people prevent the rest from having that option just because they may be vocal.

- Paul

 

[lrt's friend]

There is no rationale that would make bus service connecting to the Canadian work. After taking the Canadian this spring, I see the challenges. The Canadian has very poor schedule adherence. The end result is that buses would never connect properly. Even way back in 1977 on my very first trip on my own, the transcontinental trains did not run anywhere close to on time. I was forced to take the CP transcontinental train at that time and it worked because it was many hours late in Winnipeg. So, there is no business model that would allow buses to be scheduled with trains out west as rail currently operates..

This might change if HFR ran between Calgary and Edmonton and schedules were reliable. Then we can start thinking of connecting bus service, but even that would be limited and it is questionable that say a Fort McMurray bus connected to HFR would be attractive to those who would otherwise fly.

The challenges for VIA going through the mountains is that capacity is so limited and adding another track would be extremely expensive. So the only practical possibility is a Calgary-Banff run. Everything else would be far too expensive for the number of passengers that might use it.

It is perfectly understandable why VIA continues to operate, out west simply as a world class tourist operation. The Rocky Mountaineer has proven that a private company can do this but VIA is also obligated to run east of Jasper, which will always be at a loss.

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA should have a feeder bus network. VIA need not be the operator, but they may need to be the smart buyer to line up the routes and define a possible level of subsidy. Ideally this would be a provincial mandate except that, well, you know.....provinces and Ottawa don't connect the way they ought to.

This idea that VIA needs to run feeder services is moronic. It's akin to arguing that the GTAA should run buses that feed pax to Pearson.

It's not all that common elsewhere. Transit is usually the primary feeder of inner-city rail. And VIA plays decently with the transit services it does connect to.

It's the provinces, cities and towns that need to pick it up. @ssiguy2 asks why St. Thomas doesn't have a VIA bus. I want to know why the taxpayers of St. Thomas aren't paying for a bus to connect to nearest VIA station? Why should taxpayers elsewhere pay for services that St. Thomas wants?

@kEiThZ reminded us - weather is not always fun out there. I believe plenty of people would gladly trade the drive for a reliable, if not speedy, method of transportation

Credit to @Urban Sky. The more Johannes posted about HFR and the more I thought about my own usage with VIA, the more it made sense that travel time is not the only driver of rail demand. Reliability is huge. Especially given our climate. And if the service was as convenient to use as a GO train and reasonably priced, I’d probably drive even less. I’m starting to realize that all those other factors (on-time performance, reliability, price, frequency) are just as important as travel time. People always talk about the speed of HSR systems elsewhere. But nobody ever talks about the rest of the benefits. A train that ran at 400 kph once a day wouldn’t be all that useful. Certainly wouldn’t be as useful as a train running at 200kph that ran 10x a day.

 

[ssiguy2]

Keithz………...When I said someone be able to buy a ticket from St.John's to Campbell River, I was using it as an extreme example. I don't for a minute think anyone would be stupid enough to do it. If they can, however, hypothetically, do it then that means that people could buy a single ticket on far more practical routes like Sydney to Sudbury, Kamloops to Comox, or Milton to Magog. This would turn VIA into a real transportation system and not just a Corridor with a bunch of useless lines running outside of it. As earlier noted it could also be applied with air carriers so the person going from Medicine Hat to Magog could do so by flying into Montreal Trudeau and know that the rest of their trip to the Eastern Townships is also paid and time scheduled for them to closely relate to their flight times.

As for the money, they could use some of the grotesque rail subsidies they use on non-Corridor routes and apply them to the buses. If I lived in the Boonies and needed transportation, I would much rather have a bus go by twice a day as opposed to a train going by twice a week. There is also a real opportunity to work with the Western provinces on such a system now that Greyhound is cancelling all of their Western routes and the provinces are scrambling to find alternatives.

 

[kEiThZ]

If they can, however, hypothetically, do it then that means that people could buy a single ticket on far more practical routes like Sydney to Sudbury, Kamloops to Comox, or Milton to Magog.

Again. Why is this necessary and why is it incumbent on VIA to do this? You keep avoiding that question.

Show me a single country in the world where a single national transportation system covers the whole country including every small town. Because I've seen a lot of the world, and I've never seen this. There's usually some local intermodal service operating together. A private or public bus company operating from the train or subway station or airport. Or a connection with transit. But show me an example of what you envision.

Incidentally, Air Canada can actually sell you a ticket from Sydney, NS to Sudbury and from Kamloops to Comox, with several daily options. And they do that without subsidies. How much do Westerners like Air Canada?

As earlier noted it could also be applied with air carriers so the person going from Medicine Hat to Magog could do so by flying into Montreal Trudeau and know that the rest of their trip to the Eastern Townships is also paid and time scheduled for them to closely relate to their flight times.

This example is particularly absurd. VIA has no rail service near Magog. Yet you expect them to facilitate a such a booking. To put this context, you're asking why VIA rail isn't facilitating a booking on Air Canada's Website from Kamloops to Newmarket or from Oshawa to Burnaby.

Again, show me one place in the world where you can book every bus, train and plane on a single national website. Even asking for GO or AMT and Air Canada to be integrated would be absurd. You won't see suburban or commuter rail and air integrated anywhere else in the world.

I think you're holding VIA to some absolutely absurd and nonsensical standards that don't apply anywhere else. We aren't talking about Air France's integration with the TGV. What you're asking for is that Air France integrate with the RER. And if you can't book a ticket to La Défense or Versailles on Air France's website apparently we can deem their system not to be a "national system".

Ridiculous.

As for the money, they could use some of the grotesque rail subsidies they use on non-Corridor routes and apply them to the buses.

Your first sensible idea in a while. Again, I question why VIA has to provide this to begin with, when the provinces should be providing broad bus networks that happen to connect to rail. It's like asking VIA to take up the cost of GO or AMT. I don't see why VIA needs to provide a bus from Regina to Saskatoon or from Moncton to Saint John. But from the standpoint of fiscal efficiency, it's definitely an idea I agree with, replacing some of those rail services with more regular bus services.

 

[dowlingm]

Did everyone bellyaching about VIA not having bus connections miss the fact that they do have agreements with companies like Robert Q in London and Maritime Bus in Halifax?

Our partners

Intermodality overview

www.viarail.ca

Ultimately these things only occur if both the rail company and the bus company can have a meeting of minds about it.

 

[gweed123]

Disagree. Those 12 daily flights to London are all 50-80 seat turboprops. About 700 pax per day. So two trains worth. If were talking about adding half a dozen trains beyond today's combined NML and SML services, I don't think Pearson feed will be the bulk of riders. A lot of traffic is going to be folks who drive, who just like the convenience, comfort and reliability of rail. Factors which way more heavily with each year, as GTA traffic gets worse.

I'm not talking all riders, just the majority of new riders. I know there are quite a few people who choose to drive to Pearson from Kitchener or London or wherever because of the lack of affordable or reliable alternatives.

London may not have been the best example though, as I think Kitchener is a more likely booster for that travel pattern. The ability to fly from SFO to YYZ, then catch an HFR train to Kitchener/Waterloo on a single ticket I think would be a huge boost.

While I think that the increased reliability and slightly reduced travel times will entice some new customers for the 'traditional VIA travel patterns, I think the new travel patterns opened up by having a Ground Terminal at YYZ with efficient VIA service into it will dwarf that in terms of new customers.

 

[kEiThZ]

Ultimately these things only occur if both the rail company and the bus company can have a meeting of minds about it.

I have never gotten the sense that VIA is adverse to co-operation with regional partners. The issues are usually a lack of funding for integration efforts (building a bus terminal) or limitations on what kind of guarantees VIA can provide. As pointed out above, there's no point in coordinating buses if a train can be hours late.

Ottawa is a good example. A decade ago, the mayor at the time wanted to move the main Ottawa bus terminal to the VIA station, to work in conjunction with the upcoming LRT, building a transport hub at the VIA station. The existing bus depot owner fought back and got Greyhound to commit to a long term lease in exchange for renovation. If VIA had the capital though, they could have gone through with building a bus terminal and enticed some of the operations to move there over time. Relying on private operators or the city to such projects severely limits them. I am hoping that when HFR happens, there will enough capital to accommodate bus terminals where warranted.

The ability to fly from SFO to YYZ, then catch an HFR train to Kitchener/Waterloo on a single ticket I think would be a huge boost.

While I think that the increased reliability and slightly reduced travel times will entice some new customers for the 'traditional VIA travel patterns, I think the new travel patterns opened up by having a Ground Terminal at YYZ with efficient VIA service into it will dwarf that in terms of new customers.

Do you really need a single ticket to do this? It's a nice to have. But I struggle to see how much more ridership would be generated over simply landing at Pearson and buying a ticket at the machine before boarding. I do agree that KWC-Pearson traffic is likely to be huge, and mostly moved over from driving and shuttle vans.

I think the vast increase in ridership from the airport will simply come from having easy and highly visible access to rail. Think about it. When you travel into Heathrow or Charles De Gaulle, do you bank on codeshares to your final destination or do you just look for trains when you land? While HSR is usually integrated, it's not like there's codeshares on RER in France or the Heathrow Express or London Overground in the UK. I'm not suggesting that codeshare won't help. But I think the vast majority of new ridership simply comes from the service being offered.

 

[littlewill1166]

I think VIA somehow managed to cut a train set from their corridor fleet. Also I'm a bit disappointed with what their doing with the new student/youth passes. It's definately going to have a negative impact on ridership, but will likely increase revenues and lower expenses.

 

[E•MO•TION]

Also I'm a bit disappointed with what their doing with the new student/youth passes. It's definately going to have a negative impact on ridership, but will likely increase revenues and lower expenses.

What’s changed?

 

[ssiguy2]

Just to clarify my position...……………..I don't there should be any rail services outside the QC/Windsor Corridor and I would ditch other services in it like Gaspe, Jonquiere, and North Bay/Sudbury. Perhaps there is room for a seasonal service for the Ocean and Canadian but only if it is reasonable financially viable. Outside the Corridor the only line that makes any sense is the one VIA doesn't offer...……...Calgary/Edmonton.

Canada does need a national transportation service and especially now with the demise of Greyhound in the West but it should be based on value for the dollar and service to the citizens and not on some stupid idea that everyone needs rail no matter how useless it is nor this idea that it is everyone's responsibility to keep a few tourists happy at the expense of regular Canadians who need transportation services. The obscene amounts wasted on running services that no one uses to every God-forsaken settlement in the country would be far better used by offering a comprehensive bus service.

 

[littlewill1166]

What’s changed?

The unlimited student pass is now limited to 50 segments and escape fares only, it was 999 segments and escape/economy fares. The 6 pak used to include all economy fares, but is now limited to escape fares only. They also introduced smaller fare zones for the student pass. Already know a few people who are going to move over to Greyhound (which is dreadful traveling to london).