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VIA Rail

*Warning (again): don't feed the troll*
So if VIA wants the KW route, why would anyone from Windsor/London bother to take it if it isn't going to be any faster than it is now? Very few people who can take the train can't drive with either their own car or a rental. The service must not only be reliable and frequent but also offer a significant time savings over the alternative they already use in order for them to make a major shift in their transportation choices.
I haven't asked you to provide a rationale for why shorter passenger times increase ridership, but I've asked you to justify why the travel times Toronto-London and London-Windsor have to decrease by at least 45 and 20 minutes, respectively, for any high-frequency rail project to be successful. So, do you care to share how you arrived at these figures or are you just continuing to ignore the fact that you get constantly debunked with your unsubstantiated claims (which is a key characteristic of trolling)?

Or have you forgotten that we live in Canada, where your drive is at risk for 5 months of the year?
He lives in Vancouver, which is geographically further from Toronto than Mexico City and where the winter months are about as tame as what they call "winter" in the UK...
 
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So if VIA wants the KW route, why would anyone from Windsor/London bother to take it if it isn't going to be any faster than it is now?

It's going to be faster than today. That's the point you don't seem to understand. How much faster is debatable. But it will be faster.

Very few people who can take the train can't drive with either their own car or a rental.

Plenty of people can drive and still choose to take the train today with VIA's current less reliable and slow service. Traffic and 4 hrs at the wheel is tiring. Give people options and they won't choose that.

The service must not only be reliable and frequent but also offer a significant time savings over the alternative they already use in order for them to make a major shift in their transportation choices.

You can keep saying this. And it won't make it true. Every single train that VIA adds to the Corridor schedule gets filled up.

Time is not the only factor. Price, schedule and reliability matter too. Plenty of people will choose the train over their car, if those three are better than their car. Consistency is very important to travelers. They want to know that they'll get to their destination in the same amount of time regardless of the train they take or the day of travel. They want to know that the train will be on time. All areas where VIA drops the ball today, but where HFR would help.

Just look at HFR on Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal and you'll start to see what can be achieved in Toronto-Kitchener-London-Windsor. I imagine 15 trains a day leaving Windsor. Travel time at 3.5 hrs max from Windsor. Probably closer to 3 hrs max. With ticket prices at or lower than what they are today.

You may decide driving is better than the service I described. But we have plenty of evidence from elsewhere that a service like that will sell fantastically and (most importantly) be profitable to VIA.
 
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They should start with an actual comfortable, high-speed, TGV-like service between Montréal and Toronto, and expand it further to smaller population centres if it proves popular. (I didn't say profitable: have I mentioned that the SNCF gets 7 billion euros in operating funds every year?)

I've made three Toronto-Montréal trips in the past couple of months, and sitting on their hard seats for a total of 33 hours has taken a toll that I won't discuss. Once I made the mistake of writing for a few hours, and the eye strain caused by the often violently shaking car, due no doubt to worn-out tracks, landed me in the hospital with double vision, I thought I was having a stroke.
 
He lives in Vancouver, which is geographically further from Toronto than Mexico City and where the winter months are about as tame as what they call "winter" in the UK...

He claims to from London, ON. I'm starting to wonder if he's forgotten how tiring and tedious some of these drives are in traffic or in wintry weather.
 
They should start with an actual comfortable, high-speed, TGV-like service between Montréal and Toronto, and expand it further to smaller population centres if it proves popular. (I didn't say profitable: have I mentioned that the SNCF gets 7 billion euros in operating funds every year?)

If somebody can get them a realistic funding plan to do this, sure. As of now, such a plan doesn't exist. And their main shareholder (the federal government) wants them to produce a low cost plan that can appeal to institutional investors.

Want something different? Convince Justin Trudeau.

MOD EDIT (ad Hominem)
 
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So if VIA wants the KW route, why would anyone from Windsor/London bother to take it if it isn't going to be any faster than it is now? Very few people who can take the train can't drive with either their own car or a rental. The service must not only be reliable and frequent but also offer a significant time savings over the alternative they already use in order for them to make a major shift in their transportation choices.

Considering the GEXR track is in complete disrepair in many areas, travel times could be halved with VIA rail investing in new class 6 track along the route.

But you'd rather they resurrect an abandoned right-of-way that bypasses a major population center and requires the expropriation of homes in Paris Ontario?
 
Want something different? Convince Justin Trudeau.

Trudeau wouldn't be around long enough to hit financial close of the tender at this point; he's got 1 term left at the most.

We need to inspire a majority of Canadians to want these multi-government projects. An operationally profitable VIA HFR, now that Ontarians have gotten used to the idea of commuter rail, has the best chance of inspiring people in Ontario/Quebec to want HSR more than a tax cut.
 
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Trudeau wouldn't be around long enough to hit financial close of the tender at this point; he's got 1 term left at the most.

If he gets another term, financial close will happen on his watch. What he may not get, is the opportunity to cut the ribbon.
 
I would bet money that even a 2 hr train that had an hourly schedule to Pearson would see YXU’s feeder service in London cut in half or eliminated entirely. Especially if codeshares with rail and/or Pearson’s planned $11 billion transit hub with the rail arrival hall complete with integral check-in and bag drop counters happen.

I think you hit on a key point here. If VIA can convince even just AC and/or WestJet to offer them as a code-sharing option when booking through either their website or somewhere like Expedia, it would be a game-changer. Book your train and plane ticket through one single booking, and you make it significantly more attractive. You will likely get at least some passengers who didn't even consider it an option before.
 
For HFR; not a TGV-like service as Bayer wants.

A TGV-like service is probably not happening in our lifetimes. People need to make their peace with that and start backing HFR. I did.

I think you hit on a key point here. If VIA can convince even just AC and/or WestJet to offer them as a code-sharing option when booking through either their website or somewhere like Expedia, it would be a game-changer. Book your train and plane ticket through one single booking, and you make it significantly more attractive. You will likely get at least some passengers who didn't even consider it an option before.

Codeshares would be the ideal scenario. But absent codeshares, there's a lot that can be done. The airlines for example, could cooperate on check-in machines at VIA stations and work with VIA on a baggage transfer service at Pearson and Dorval. Imagine that you arrive at the VIA station in London and get your airline boarding pass and tag your baggage and hand it over. You get off the train at Pearson and walk right to security. That doesn't require a specific codeshare to pull off.

And even if that's not possible, having check-in and bag drop counters at the Pearson hub would still be a huge improvement. You wouldn't be in the huge mass checking in at the terminal. You wouldn't have to lug your baggage around. Just get off the train and check in.
 
Codeshares would be the ideal scenario. But absent codeshares, there's a lot that can be done. The airlines for example, could cooperate on check-in machines at VIA stations and work with VIA on a baggage transfer service at Pearson and Dorval. Imagine that you arrive at the VIA station in London and get your airline boarding pass and tag your baggage and hand it over. You get off the train at Pearson and walk right to security. That doesn't require a specific codeshare to pull off.

And even if that's not possible, having check-in and bag drop counters at the Pearson hub would still be a huge improvement. You wouldn't be in the huge mass checking in at the terminal. You wouldn't have to lug your baggage around. Just get off the train and check in.

That would certainly be a welcome step forward, at least on the day-of customer experience side of things. I'm thinking more for the booking side of things though. Right now when you want to book a trip from Aldershot to say Ottawa, VIA's website offers you the option of using GO to get from Aldershot to Union, in addition to a VIA-only option trip. If someone was on Air Canada's website and looking to get from London, ON to London, UK, it would be nice if the London ON - YYZ leg gave the option of VIA HFR, in addition to whatever short-haul flight is being offered.

IMO, the train-plane market is where a majority of the new ridership (as compared to VIA's current ridership) will come from. The downtown-to-downtown TOM ridership will likely see a moderate increase, but I think the "small-ish town" to YYZ market is where VIA can really make some hay if done properly.
 
A TGV-like service is probably not happening in our lifetimes. People need to make their peace with that and start backing HFR. I did.
I think believe some form of high speed train will touch Toronto (either eastwards/westwards) will still begin construction between ~2030-2040 and start service ~2035-2045, which is still within my lifetime. Whether as a VIA HFR speedup, a GO express upgrade, an entirely new service, or a combination thereof.
 
I think you hit on a key point here. If VIA can convince even just AC and/or WestJet to offer them as a code-sharing option when booking through either their website or somewhere like Expedia, it would be a game-changer. Book your train and plane ticket through one single booking, and you make it significantly more attractive. You will likely get at least some passengers who didn't even consider it an option before.

This is an excellent idea but it should be broadened in scope to include inter-city buses. One of my complaints about VIA is that it is a train company when it, if it REALLY wanted to serve Canadians, should be a transportation company. To use London as an example, someone from St.Thomas a city of 42,000 that actually borders the City of London, has absolutely no access to VIA service because there are no buses that connect the 2.

I have never supported VIA rail in the West despite living here because I know a waste of money when I see it. Out here people view VIA as a transportation option as much as people in Niagara Falls view the Maiden of the Mist as one............to say it is completely irrelevant is an insult to word irrelevant. This however would change dramatically if VIA didn't just offer train service but bus service as well to connect different communities together as well as connect them to the nearest VIA train station. If VIA wants to become truly relevant to all Canadians and not just the ones in the big cities of Ontario & Quebec then a connecting VIA bus service is essential. If VIA wants to be viewed as a truly national transportation system then someone in St.John's should be able to buy a single ticket to Campbell River.
 
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That would certainly be a welcome step forward, at least on the day-of customer experience side of things. I'm thinking more for the booking side of things though. Right now when you want to book a trip from Aldershot to say Ottawa, VIA's website offers you the option of using GO to get from Aldershot to Union, in addition to a VIA-only option trip. If someone was on Air Canada's website and looking to get from London, ON to London, UK, it would be nice if the London ON - YYZ leg gave the option of VIA HFR, in addition to whatever short-haul flight is being offered.

That requires a codeshare. How willing airlines are to play ball on codeshares with VIA remains to be seen. Also, codeshares will require a lot on VIA's end. The airlines will insist on a level of reliability, customer service and baggage handling systems that ensure their own operations aren't adversely impacted.

Can it be done? Absolutely. But I think it'll be baby steps and not a day one feature. VIA will need things like the hub at Pearson and a connection at Dorval. VIA will need an HFR track record which they can show the airlines.

IMO, the train-plane market is where a majority of the new ridership (as compared to VIA's current ridership) will come from.

Disagree. Those 12 daily flights to London are all 50-80 seat turboprops. About 700 pax per day. So two trains worth. If were talking about adding half a dozen trains beyond today's combined NML and SML services, I don't think Pearson feed will be the bulk of riders. A lot of traffic is going to be folks who drive, who just like the convenience, comfort and reliability of rail. Factors which way more heavily with each year, as GTA traffic gets worse.

One of my complaints about VIA is that it is a train company when it, if it REALLY wanted to serve Canadians, should be a transportation company. To use London as an example, someone from St.Thomas a city of 42,000 that actually borders the City of London, has absolutely no access to VIA service because there are no buses that connect the 2.

Until HFR, nobody has had a proposal to make the Corridor profitable. This means that every service addition simply increases the subsidy cheque to be cut. Exactly why successive governments (Liberal or Conservative) have been uninterested in growing VIA. Once you have a frequent and profitable operation, the math very much changes. And bus services become much more feasible. Running a bus service to pick up a handful of pax to feed half a dozen trains requires lots of subsidies. Running a bus to feed an hourly train service might just have a business case. Heck, might not even need VIA to run it. Some local private operator might just run a shuttle van service on their own.

Out here people view VIA as a transportation option as much as people in Niagara Falls view the Maiden of the Mist as one.

People out west also view electric cars as some strange and foreign idea. And think you're less manly if you don't drive a pickup with truck nuts on your tow hitch.

VIA's failing out west is not servicing small towns or even larger cities that are far part. There's no business case for connecting Medicine Hat to Moose Jaw. There's no business case for running trains from Winnipeg to Regina or from Kelowna to Vancouver. The real rub is that VIA doesn't serve the other major corridor which actually has demand: Calgary-Edmonton. If VIA had HFR on Calgary-Edmonton, I would bet my next paycheque that a lot of Albertans would suddenly become staunch defenders of VIA. I am hopeful that success in Southern Ontario gives VIA both the financial capacity and experience to tackle Calgary-Edmonton next. There's no way they aren't thinking about it.

If VIA wants to become truly irrelevant to all Canadians and not just the ones in the big cities of Ontario & Quebec then a connecting VIA bus service is essential.

Connecting bus service to a line which run one train a day (the Canadian) would be a massive money sink. Not happening unless the government wants to spend tens/hundreds of millions more annually on subsidies.

If VIA wants to be viewed as a truly national transportation system then someone in St.John's should be able to buy a single ticket to Campbell River.

This is moronic. There's no practical reason anyone would buy such a reason, beyond a tourist trip. And facilitating such a service as transportation, not sight-seeing, would be massively expensive. Why would anybody take a train for days to travel that far when they can fly?

Long distance trains exist as tourist runs. Simple as that. There's some social value in servicing some small hamlets en route. But their primary purpose and revenue comes from tourists. The only exception to that maybe the Ocean. Longer than driving, but plenty of people who don't wan to drive and can afford more than the bus (but don't wan to spend on airfare) take it.

Just look at trains like Prince Rupert-Jasper, where every passenger gets a $519 subsidy, or the $596 for every passenger on the Canadian or the $544 per passenger on the Ocean.....or the really mind-blowing $1227 per passenger subsidy on the Winnipeg-Churchill route. This is on top of the fares they pay. We could literally save money as taxpayers subsidizing the airfare of these passengers. But the government insists that VIA offer these services and then gives them a meager budget to do this, and yet you expect them to offer even more budget crushing bus services on top?

The idea that what defines a national transportation service in a country the size of a continent, but with the population of Poland, is coverage, is mind-bogglingly simplistic. And unfortunately, it's this very mentality that stops VIA from aggressively pursuing ideas that make them profitable. Personally, I'd be quite fine with the government privatizing VIA. I can envision them achieving a lot more with private investors who'd cancel or cut all the other services and focus exclusively on the Corridor and probably a Calgary-Edmonton HFR service: the only two corridors that offer any profitable potential for intercity rail.
 
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