nfitz
Superstar
If you spend billions on grade separations and new track.
For a price, most anything is feasible. But it's certainly not happening anytime soon. I'm not even aware of any current discussion.
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
For a price, most anything is feasible. But it's certainly not happening anytime soon. I'm not even aware of any current discussion.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
@nfitz is right, for higher speeds you need grade separations. Transport Canada rules don't allow trains to cross level crossings at more than 177km/h. Even VIA's HFR plan assumes 177km/h as a maximum speed as level crossings will be present.
Andy_in_Toronto
Active Member
Done for the 585km between Munich and Berlin. Costed with lot of tunnels and bridges approx €10 billions. Think it took 30 years to build!
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Great to hear that VIA is getting the same kind of trainsets as Brightline! Good transitional diesel trainset to theoretical future HSR.
Nontheless, remember.... These trains have a lifecycle of a few decades.
While HFR design is 177kph, nothing stops VIA from slowly speeding up sections later if HFR is blockbuster popular, to 177kph and to 200kph and beyond. Quite feasible that a certain faster sections may occur within 15-20 years, in preparation for even incremental upgrades to 225kph/250kph HSR trainsets -- Chargers would still be able to whoosh 200kph on those new track sections.
Nontheless, the ability to advertise "200kph" or "Montreal 3 hours" on those bus posters will certainly attract even more ridership. Let's start with HFR and see how popular it is. Chargers is a very good transitional trainset that is later capable of hitting HSR-lite speeds, for any potential future HSR after lots of HFR growth.
Nontheless, remember.... These trains have a lifecycle of a few decades.
While HFR design is 177kph, nothing stops VIA from slowly speeding up sections later if HFR is blockbuster popular, to 177kph and to 200kph and beyond. Quite feasible that a certain faster sections may occur within 15-20 years, in preparation for even incremental upgrades to 225kph/250kph HSR trainsets -- Chargers would still be able to whoosh 200kph on those new track sections.
Nontheless, the ability to advertise "200kph" or "Montreal 3 hours" on those bus posters will certainly attract even more ridership. Let's start with HFR and see how popular it is. Chargers is a very good transitional trainset that is later capable of hitting HSR-lite speeds, for any potential future HSR after lots of HFR growth.
TOareaFan
Superstar
If my car goes 125km/hr (max) and your car goes 200km/hr (max) and they both travel between point A and B where the combination of road structure/condition, stops and slow areas and other traffic limit the average travel time to 100km/hr.....which car makes the trip the fastest?
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Good question.
For reference, here are the projected HFR travel times vs current vs automobile.
TOareaFan
Superstar
^my point was not to compare the travel time of train to car.....but to point out that the maximum speed of the train is not (by a long shot) the only thing that influences travel time.
In current conditions, I would suspect these new trains will make the trip to Montreal in about (+/-) the same time that the current fleet does.
In current conditions, I would suspect these new trains will make the trip to Montreal in about (+/-) the same time that the current fleet does.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
I agree. Number of stops, CN freight, track conditions are much more the limiting factor here rather than max speed of the trainsets. Underscores the need for HFR, but at least this new fleet is a good first step.
littlewill1166
Active Member
Slightly off topic, but I'm starting to think that the new fleet is going to have worse legroom than the current fleet. Here's the math:
9100 passengers/32 trainsets/4 cars = 71.9 passengers per car
That equals to at least another row of seats when compared to the LRCs which have 68 seats per car (Brightline has 64 seats per car). This also doesn't take into account the fact that business class is going to be in a less dense configuration which could add another row or two into economy class. If the 9100 passengers number remains correct, the seats are probably going to be a tight squeeze.
9100 passengers/32 trainsets/4 cars = 71.9 passengers per car
That equals to at least another row of seats when compared to the LRCs which have 68 seats per car (Brightline has 64 seats per car). This also doesn't take into account the fact that business class is going to be in a less dense configuration which could add another row or two into economy class. If the 9100 passengers number remains correct, the seats are probably going to be a tight squeeze.
nfitz
Superstar
Do we know the dimensions of the new coaches? Are they the same length?
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cplchanb
Senior Member
I wonder /hope if there will be Express train services that skip minor stops. 445 Toronto to Montreal on dedicated track still seems really slow considering its 500km apart. That's an average of just 105km/h...
They need to be targeting well under 4hrs to make the service attractive. Even 150km/h avg service speed will be enough for 3.5hrs for 500km
nfitz
Superstar
This is part of why VIA's HFR concept is such a disaster. They used to be able to run 3:59 sharing with CN, before the freight became an issue. But 4:45 on a dedicated right-of-way?
The right-of-way they want to use, just isn't suitable ... too many curves. And looking at the costs they've projected, are totally unrealistic ... there's no way they are getting from Union to Agincourt on the meagre budget they've proposed - let alone to Montreal. They must have completely underestimated what it would take to rehab the line up the DVP, and grade-separate through the CP track at Leaside.
crs1026
Superstar
Can't argue with your math....but....I haven't found a source that says that the trainsets are 4 cars.... most of the press accounts zero in on 32 trainsets, but don't mention the number of cars per trainset - did you find a source for that?
- Paul
littlewill1166
Active Member
Assuming they're based off the bright line ones, they are 20 cm longer which isn't a whole lot.
https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...cb5db88cc55.image-viaggio-comfort-english.pdf
littlewill1166
Active Member
Don't really have a direct source, the video they posted on youtube shows 4 cars, and the Instagram post showed a loco and 3 cars so I used the more reasonable one. I did a bit more math below.
A current 4 car LRC consist contains a club car and 3 coach cars.
44 seats + 68 seats + 68 seats + 68 seats = 248 seats
A new consist should have an average of 9100 passengers/32 trainsets = 284 passengers/trainset (note some trains will be longer/shorter).
If business class remains at 44 seats, then there will be 240 in economy class.
240 passengers/4 economy cars = 60 seats
240 passengers/3 economy cars = 80 seats
After doing the math again, VIA could try to put 80 seats per car, but they probably wouldn't have space for a bike rack so the 5 cars per train set with 60 seats is awesome and a lot more reasonable and I hope that it's what they go with. On the other hand, the seat numbering in the video goes up to 65 so we might end up with something like what we have today.
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