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VIA Rail

I dont see the conservatives winning the next election.

But i dont see them supporting so much spending since they are a more "fiscally responsible" party.
 
What is sadder is when people try to argue that it is good service and we should be happy we have any. Just imagine if they gutted the Corridor like this?
There was a lot of service when VIA took over around 1978. Imagine what it would be like if those services had been continued and upgraded since then. There was so much service!
 
There was a lot of service when VIA took over around 1978. Imagine what it would be like if those services had been continued and upgraded since then. There was so much service!

Heres my opinion on the matter. And I know it will be unpopular around here. Plus, note I am a train nerd and love trains.

Most of those routes, are better served by buses. Some like the Churchill route still exist because there are no roads, but there is little gained in these low density areas that a train will bring over a frequent bus route.

The exception is the Canadian having a more southerly route through Calgary etc. The Canadian should move back to its original route, with a high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton, and perhaps a branch that comes off of the Canadian Winnipeg to Edmonton as well.

That being said bus services in Canada have been gutted as well, but I really don't see the advantages of rail in these tiny bedroom communities that the old lines served.
 
I totally agree with you. We need an actual publicly owned system that links smaller regional nodes to bigger centres and train service. I'm sure such a system would build traffic to warrant more regional focused train lines in the future.
 
The last time the Conservatives were in power, they spent $400M upgrading the Kingston Sub. Hardly “horrific”. The project was tainted, and may have soured the Cons in the short term, but VIA increased its frequency all the same. The Cons know that absent VIA there will be calls for funding for airports and/or highways. They will favour whatever costs least, and that may be rail.

The Liberals have the option of including the HFr project in their election platform, or not. If they don’t, the question becomes how they justify continuing the JPO expense. They may dither, but they will have trouble saying NO firmly.

For the Cons, they too have a choice. If they oppose HFR, do they call for immediate cessation of JPR work ? If they let the JPO continue, they paint themselves into a corner when the reports are released.

For both parties, a JPO finding of no net loss is probably all they need to get behind HFR. If it can run in the black, it’s defensible to either constituency.

I am not worried by either set of tea leaves. The slow pace is frustrating, but there is no big iceberg out there. We just wait.

- Paul
Exactly, people are jumping the gun here with rampant speculations about the election, the conservatives, and a bunch of what-if scenarios based on their personal perceptions of "what would XYZ party would do".

Relax, get a drink, and have some patience.
 
Heres my opinion on the matter. And I know it will be unpopular around here. Plus, note I am a train nerd and love trains.

Most of those routes, are better served by buses. Some like the Churchill route still exist because there are no roads, but there is little gained in these low density areas that a train will bring over a frequent bus route.

The exception is the Canadian having a more southerly route through Calgary etc. The Canadian should move back to its original route, with a high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton, and perhaps a branch that comes off of the Canadian Winnipeg to Edmonton as well.

That being said bus services in Canada have been gutted as well, but I really don't see the advantages of rail in these tiny bedroom communities that the old lines served.
I asked the same question in a different forum and the answer was essentially reliability. The due to weather conditions the roads are not reliable enough for bus service in the North. Train is able to go through severe weather situations where the bus cannot.

When I looked at the subsidy costs for the Ontario Northlander, it actually wasn't much ($25m/annually) so running a national train network actually shouldn't be that bad (especially if VIA were to run on it's own track?). At the very least, I look at preserving these communities as insurance for the country.
 
I asked the same question in a different forum and the answer was essentially reliability. The due to weather conditions the roads are not reliable enough for bus service in the North. Train is able to go through severe weather situations where the bus cannot.

It is true that trains are more reliable in bad weather, but at what cost? Trains are significantly more expensive to run than buses and if there is less than a bus load of people on board, either the ticket prices become exorbitant or the government will be on the hook for huge annual subsidies.

When I looked at the subsidy costs for the Ontario Northlander, it actually wasn't much ($25m/annually) so running a national train network actually shouldn't be that bad

The Northlander ran 6 days a week, which works out to about 313 days a year, so that is a subsidy just shy of $40,000 per train each way. Even if there was an average of 100 people on board (likely an over estimate), that works out to a government subsidy of about $400 per passenger, each way, in addition the whatever fare they paid.

(especially if VIA were to run on it's own track?). At the very least, I look at preserving these communities as insurance for the country.

I wouldn't trivialize the cost of maintaining track to any reasonable standard (a passenger train crawling along at 15mph (24 km/h) is not going to cut it). The Northlander ran on track that was also being used by Ontario Northland for freight. It is only economical if VIA is using it many times a day (like with HFR). For routes that will only see at most 1 train a day each way, those costs will be significantly higher than using another railway's track.
 
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It is true that trains are more reliable in bad weather, but at what cost? Trains are significantly more expensive to run than buses and if there is less than a bus load of people on board, either the ticket prices become exorbitant or the government will be on the hook for huge annual subsidies.



The Northlander ran 6 days a week, which works out to about 313 days a year, so that is a subsidy just shy of $40,000 per train each way. Even if there was an average of 100 people on board (likely an over estimate), that works out to a government subsidy of about $400 per passenger, each way, in addition the whatever fair they paid.



I wouldn't trivialize the cost of maintaining track to any reasonable standard (a passenger train crawling along at 15mph (24 km/h) is not going to cut it). The Northlander ran on track that was also being used by Ontario Northland for freight. It is only economical if VIA is using it many times a day (like with HFR). For routes that will only see at most 1 train a day each way, those costs will be significantly higher than using another railway's track.
I thought along the same lines which led to my question about using frequent buses instead of trains.

The estimate for Northlander was around a $200-$400 per passenger subsidy.

An annual $25 million dollar subsidy isn't bad for a risk mitigation perspective. Enabling the existence of many communities may pay dividends in the future. You don't need em until you need em.
 
I thought along the same lines which led to my question about using frequent buses instead of trains.

The estimate for Northlander was around a $200-$400 per passenger subsidy.

An annual $25 million dollar subsidy isn't bad for a risk mitigation perspective. Enabling the existence of many communities may pay dividends in the future. You don't need em until you need em.

How many snow days are there in a year are there where the bus would be cancelled but the train would run? It would be cheaper to pay for hotels for those who's bus is cancelled because of inclement weather than it would be to subsidize a train all year round.

Don't get me wrong, like @robmausser, I am a train nerd and love trains, but having rail lines heavily subsidized for sentimental reasons or the very occasional trip cancellation doesn't make sense.
 
I wouldn't trivialize the cost of maintaining track to any reasonable standard (a passenger train crawling along at 15mph (24 km/h) is not going to cut it). The Northlander ran on track that was also being used by Ontario Northland for freight. It is only economical if VIA is using it many times a day (like with HFR). For routes that will only see at most 1 train a day each way, those costs will be significantly higher than using another railway's track.

The Northlander has its own thread, but it’s a good case study here to demonstrate just how important that freight business is.

Take the lists of cancelled services that were posted above, and count how many have passenger-ready trackage today. Some of the lines have disappeared altogether, others are running only as slow speed branch lines. If the freight business folds, either VIA would have to buy the line and pay to maintain it (which only works where the line can generate enough revenue to cover its maintenance) or the track deteriorates below a level that can handle passenger.

The Ontario Northland route handles less freight than it once did. The quality of track is commensurate with that. It’s a downward trend.

Even supposed main lines, such as the Moncton-Campbellton line, are not up to added passenger service without investment to bring the tracks up to a higher standard.

I’m the first to complain about how service has been cut on corridor lines that could generate value, but I can’t make a case for many of those forgotten services that no longer have a freight business to share the cost.

- Paul
 
Heres my opinion on the matter. And I know it will be unpopular around here. Plus, note I am a train nerd and love trains.

Most of those routes, are better served by buses. Some like the Churchill route still exist because there are no roads, but there is little gained in these low density areas that a train will bring over a frequent bus route.

The exception is the Canadian having a more southerly route through Calgary etc. The Canadian should move back to its original route, with a high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton, and perhaps a branch that comes off of the Canadian Winnipeg to Edmonton as well.

That being said bus services in Canada have been gutted as well, but I really don't see the advantages of rail in these tiny bedroom communities that the old lines served.

The issue is that a train that is once every few days is not for transportation. It is silly that I live within a reasonable distance of the Canadian, and I am close enough that I can get to Toronto within a reasonable time, but I cannot use it for a weekend trip as it does not run enough to use it. There are others like me who would use it for trips like that, but cannot because it does not run often enough.

Another issue is the simple fact that cutting one service to add elsewhere makes no sense. Service should stay on the existing routes, but add service along the routes you mention as well.

I asked the same question in a different forum and the answer was essentially reliability. The due to weather conditions the roads are not reliable enough for bus service in the North. Train is able to go through severe weather situations where the bus cannot.

When I looked at the subsidy costs for the Ontario Northlander, it actually wasn't much ($25m/annually) so running a national train network actually shouldn't be that bad (especially if VIA were to run on it's own track?). At the very least, I look at preserving these communities as insurance for the country.

A train does not stop for a car accident. A train does not stop for a blizzard. Ever see a major highway closed for 12 hours and no other way around it? This reminds me of when the Nipigon River Bidge failed a few years ago. There is no road route around it in Canada. A train running the old CP Canadian route would have easily been utilized. Southern ON doesn't face that kind of issue. If the 401 is closed along the entire route, you could make your way around it.

It is true that trains are more reliable in bad weather, but at what cost? Trains are significantly more expensive to run than buses and if there is less than a bus load of people on board, either the ticket prices become exorbitant or the government will be on the hook for huge annual subsidies.



The Northlander ran 6 days a week, which works out to about 313 days a year, so that is a subsidy just shy of $40,000 per train each way. Even if there was an average of 100 people on board (likely an over estimate), that works out to a government subsidy of about $400 per passenger, each way, in addition the whatever fare they paid.



I wouldn't trivialize the cost of maintaining track to any reasonable standard (a passenger train crawling along at 15mph (24 km/h) is not going to cut it). The Northlander ran on track that was also being used by Ontario Northland for freight. It is only economical if VIA is using it many times a day (like with HFR). For routes that will only see at most 1 train a day each way, those costs will be significantly higher than using another railway's track.

None of ONR owned track is that low of speed. Someone else can give you the proper one, but it is not that slow.

I thought along the same lines which led to my question about using frequent buses instead of trains.

The estimate for Northlander was around a $200-$400 per passenger subsidy.

An annual $25 million dollar subsidy isn't bad for a risk mitigation perspective. Enabling the existence of many communities may pay dividends in the future. You don't need em until you need em.

With the way people are leaving the big cities for smaller towns with a yard at a fraction of the cost of their condo, having good rail connections to the big city will be what help these places grow.

How many snow days are there in a year are there where the bus would be cancelled but the train would run? It would be cheaper to pay for hotels for those who's bus is cancelled because of inclement weather than it would be to subsidize a train all year round.

Don't get me wrong, like @robmausser, I am a train nerd and love trains, but having rail lines heavily subsidized for sentimental reasons or the very occasional trip cancellation doesn't make sense.

Part of the problem with the Northlander, and other non Corridor trains seems to be the same thing - the schedule. For instance, the Northlander used to be a night train, arriving in Toronto in the morning. This saved many people a hotel room.
A friend of mine wanted to visit me form Montreal. No matter how he tried to plan it, he was stuck in a hotel for a night in Toronto. That shouldn't be the case.

As far as snow days, or other incidents, figure at least 10 for the winter and a few more when roads decide to collapse like they did a few years ago around the Soo.
 

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