News   Jun 28, 2024
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News   Jun 28, 2024
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VIA Rail

Wouldn't they also have to provide service on the northern line, for remote communities have no roads.

If I recall correctly, that was the logic when the Progressive Conservative government cancelled the southern route.
That was what was said at the time, yes. Doesn't mean it was the full reason - nor does it apply today.

As I pointed out above, not all remote communities get equal treatment. The vast majority - even those on a rail line - don't have VIA service at all.

- Paul
 
Having a separate bunk area for the crew? If they already do that on some of the other routes, what would be the issue. Instead of a snarky comment, why not explain it.

The trains that have "dormitories" are overnight trains with full meal service and have need of crew overnight. That is a far different from adding a few bunks to a daytime train. Also, AFAIK, some of the crew (like the engineers) don't sleep on the train but get off at a crew change point.

Well, no. You take the car from another route, do a complete refurbishment of it, and then put it out on the line. Or, new cars, but, if we are to believe that this is more of a tourist route and a land yacht, then putting newer cars might ruin that.

Considering all of the LRC, Renaissance and HEP cars are at the end of their life and cannot be refurbished, how is this possible? What is VIA left with to refurbish? All I can see is their 3 Panorama Dome cars, and even they are almost 20 years old.

... not on here. It is interesting, I was not the one bringing the Canadian up. I can speak here to what a layman can see from the data. Of course, there may be more to it, but prove to me that Via has done something that is not political. Short of the new rolling stock, there isn't much. Even then, it was used as a political platform item.

Lets just refer everyone to the 115 page thread you created on SSP and call it a day.

Right now, there is nothing due to covid. Prior to, yes, it was 2-3x a week.
Look at it like the Corridor. You cannot get a 1 seat ride between Windsor-Quebec City. Some parts have more service, some have less. Prior to covid, there was a additional service between Edmonton and Vancouver. That means that there is the beginnings of Corridor type service prior to covid. Now, they are running a Vancouver - Winnipeg train. Once the full service is restored, if they kept the 2 services running now, then we would have the beginnings of service that can grow with need. There might be a need for more service to/from Thunder Bay if the old line is reactivated.

But the only track VIA owns had multiple trains a day prior to COVID. Even the track they used the least (the Chatham Sub) saw 4 trains each way a day, 6 days a week (and 3 trains each way on the 7th).

Now that both companies are not government owned or run, it is a good time to look at where service would be needed. It is interesting that between Vancouver and Toronto, most of the larger cities, which is on the CP main are not served. I wonder if the decision was made today, with the current ownership of the lines, which line would have been cancelled?

I agree that if they had to make the decision today, the results may very well be different, but the conditions are very different today then they were 30 years ago and complaining about what was done won't help change anything today.
 
That was what was said at the time, yes. Doesn't mean it was the full reason - nor does it apply today.

As I pointed out above, not all remote communities get equal treatment. The vast majority - even those on a rail line - don't have VIA service at all.

- Paul

True. It is also possible (I don't know) that communities that have roads today, didn't have them 30 years ago. One would have to look at a map of Northern Ontario from 1990 to be sure.
 
I suspect that at best, it's more a squeaky-wheel analysis than hard numbers. And any threshold or formula would set precedent for other lines. Note that "Ottawa" declined to support the former Algoma Central route, which has a few minor hamlets but plenty of recreational/seasonal camps. For that matter, nobody had difficulty watching the Northlander disappear. And by any measure, adding service to Thunder Bay and the Marathon area would far outvote the CN route in terms of ridership.

Each route may have some unique pluses and minuses, and there will be differences between main lines and branch lines in terms of the impact on freight operations.. so hard to compare apples to apples.

Nobody seems to be serious about rail for the Ring of Fire, and that's the only growth opportunity I can see where rail might support development up that way.

- Paul

Or create a squeaky wheel where one doesn't currently exist. I suspect that why they haven't cancelled VI and Gaspe outright. Benign neglect is much less effort. As for the the CN Soo passenger train and Northlander, why inherit somebody else's territory when you re barely interested in the one you have.

As for the ROF, I've lost track of what's going on up there. Rail has higher up front costs but, once the thing gets rolling, I have a hard time envisioning how they intend to truck out the tonnage necessary to feed a refinery 365. That amount of tonnage on a road built on the boreal will pound the snot out of it.
 
As I pointed out above, not all remote communities get equal treatment. The vast majority - even those on a rail line - don't have VIA service at all.

- Paul
You seem to suggest that there are remote communities (i.e. without year-round road access), which are served by an active freight line but without passenger rail service. Can you name some examples?
 
You seem to suggest that there are remote communities (i.e. without year-round road access), which are served by an active freight line but without passenger rail service. Can you name some examples?

You raise an interesting challenge.. Roads of some form extend a lot further than they used to, so when one fact-checks, one finds that many places that we think of as “remote communities” do in fact have a road connection.

For example, if one looks at the White River route, there are numerous road crossings along its length, and the route is parallelled by road for long stretches. Same with the Senneterre route. How much is winter-access I don't know.

I guess my point may be the inverse of what I wrote....some “remote services” aren’t as "remote" as they once were.

I would certainly put the Algoma Central route on the list. It had a solid volume of summer camps and remote dwellings that were adversely affected by the loss of the local passenger train. Similarly, I would contrast the Canadian’s route with the CP line.... while serving subdivision points, the Canadian does not offer “flag stop anywhere” service in the same way that the White River train does. The CN route has a solid volume of road crossings, so if it's road-serviced, the White River run is doubly so.

VIA in its early years did run "campers' specials" out of Winnipeg. It would be interesting to compare the population, average distance to roads, number of on-line camps and hunting/fishing businesses along these lines.

Other than perhaps the Churchill line, and perhaps the Moosonee train (which is traditionally a provincial effort) I'm not so sure we can talk about having a "Remote Community" passenger network in this country, so much as we can say that some routes have managed to retain service while others have lost it, and I'm certainly not about to argue for discontinuing what's left. But on an apples to apples basis, maybe there are winners and losers that don't make rational sense.

One does wonder if a more hard-nosed government would download remote services to the provinces. But... that might invite the option of a province seeking to add, or reinstate, a past service. We can't have the provinces telling VIA what they might want.... it might lead to VIA growing a business.

- Paul

PS - without getting too much into a fantasy discussion, one hears almost as much angst about the over-use of Algonquin Park by campers and hikers as one hears about Banff. All of that Algonquin traffic comes into the park by car. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a local rail service across the park so people could leave their cars at the park gate?
 
- Paul

PS - without getting too much into a fantasy discussion, one hears almost as much angst about the over-use of Algonquin Park by campers and hikers as one hears about Banff. All of that Algonquin traffic comes into the park by car. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a local rail service across the park so people could leave their cars at the park gate?

There was a rail line that parallels the highway. It is long since gone.
A train to Huntsville and then a bus into the park would work. If the Northlander does return, and it is set up properly, it could be used to commute to the ark. ONR could add a bus to the park. Maybe if there was ever enough demand, a rail line could be built. However, that is more fantasy than Via owning the old CN line to Thunder Bay.
 
From a Facebook group. Progress update. Sounds like VIA could return to Gaspé in 2025?

Railroad Repair Update!

Section 1 Matapédia to Caplan 80 miles.

Regular routine maintenance work to ensure safe operation. The first section has now been repaired. Freight trains can now run at full capacity.

Section 2 Caplan to Port-Daniel 44 miles.

Work in progress and planned for 2021 and 2022.

Construction work on the replacement of the railroad bridge in Caplan. Continue the rehabilitation work on the railroad bridge in Port-Daniel-Gascons.

Begin work on 11 other infrastructures that need to be repaired or rebuilt.

Carry out the following asset maintenance work in 2021 and 2022.
Repair and widening of the Port-Daniel-Gascons tunnel.
Repair of around 30 level crossings.
Work on more than 40 culverts.
Erosion issues to correct.
Repair of the New Carlisle rail yard.

The reopening of the Caplan to Port-Daniel section is scheduled for next year 2022!

Section 3 Port-Daniel-Gascons and Gaspé 78 miles.

Work in progress and planned.
Carry out engineering work on 20 infrastructures to be repaired or
rebuilt, including the feasibility analysis of two bridges for
pedestrians and cyclists.

Complete the asset maintenance work started in the summer of 2020.
Replacement of ties, replacement of rail saddles, adding ballast, and leveling the track.

The reopening of the Percé to Gaspé for the tourist train is scheduled for 2024.

The reopening of the entire Port-Daniel-Gascons to Gaspé section is scheduled for 2025. In 2025, freight trains will be able to run at full capacity and the passenger train will be able to run on the entire Matapédia to Gaspé rail line!

[Chemin de fer de la Gaspésie - Tabloïd projet de réhabilitation décembre 2020 (gouv.qc.ca)](https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr/projets-infrastructures/structures-infrastructures/infrastructures-ferroviaires/rehabilitation-chemin-fer-gaspesie/Documents/tabloid-train-gaspesie.pdf)
 
You seem to suggest that there are remote communities (i.e. without year-round road access), which are served by an active freight line but without passenger rail service. Can you name some examples?

As I mentioned in an earlier, a complete listing would require a deeper analysis than simple Internet searching would seem to provide. The only one I came across was Collins, that seems to have permanent residents but no road access. There may be more.
You raise an interesting challenge.. Roads of some form extend a lot further than they used to, so when one fact-checks, one finds that many places that we think of as “remote communities” do in fact have a road connection.

For example, if one looks at the White River route, there are numerous road crossings along its length, and the route is parallelled by road for long stretches. Same with the Senneterre route. How much is winter-access I don't know.

I guess my point may be the inverse of what I wrote....some “remote services” aren’t as "remote" as they once were.

I would certainly put the Algoma Central route on the list. It had a solid volume of summer camps and remote dwellings that were adversely affected by the loss of the local passenger train. Similarly, I would contrast the Canadian’s route with the CP line.... while serving subdivision points, the Canadian does not offer “flag stop anywhere” service in the same way that the White River train does. The CN route has a solid volume of road crossings, so if it's road-serviced, the White River run is doubly so.

VIA in its early years did run "campers' specials" out of Winnipeg. It would be interesting to compare the population, average distance to roads, number of on-line camps and hunting/fishing businesses along these lines.

Other than perhaps the Churchill line, and perhaps the Moosonee train (which is traditionally a provincial effort) I'm not so sure we can talk about having a "Remote Community" passenger network in this country, so much as we can say that some routes have managed to retain service while others have lost it, and I'm certainly not about to argue for discontinuing what's left. But on an apples to apples basis, maybe there are winners and losers that don't make rational sense.

One does wonder if a more hard-nosed government would download remote services to the provinces. But... that might invite the option of a province seeking to add, or reinstate, a past service. We can't have the provinces telling VIA what they might want.... it might lead to VIA growing a business.

- Paul

PS - without getting too much into a fantasy discussion, one hears almost as much angst about the over-use of Algonquin Park by campers and hikers as one hears about Banff. All of that Algonquin traffic comes into the park by car. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a local rail service across the park so people could leave their cars at the park gate?

A lot of the roads in the remote north that one sees on computer mapping are forestry access roads; used by companies that have cutting rights in the area to haul timber. They generally are not gated, if for no other reason than they would have to pay somebody to sit on the gate. A few, like the 'Sultan Rd' are open to the public because the company gets some provincial funding. In all cases, they are not built to any standards and are signed as 'use at your own risk'. Maintenance is only done if the companies are using a particular section and, even at that, isn't great. Load dimensions and weights don't apply and I doubt your insurance company would be cooperative if something happened. Whether they are year 'round depends on the activity of the company. Many do not cut in the winter. Some that show on map images may be out-of-service for years since the area had been logged out. The MNRF used to require that they be severed (a cut line or berm) but I don't know what the current practices are.

Posters are correct that what was remote a couple of decades ago may no longer be, and what were once permanent communities may no longer be. I suppose its a policy decision that, if on a remote service line, where once were many are now a few, or one, what is the cut-off.

There is clearly no equity in access for remote communities; never was nor could there by. Those that happen to be on a line built a century or more ago (or that arose because of it) get service, other didn't luck out. The others, that actually qualify as settlement rather than merely a cluster of houses - mostly FNTs, are served by provincially-operated air strips. A flight is obviously more expensive but, then again, you don't have to wait several days to move in or out.

As for Algonquin Park, that has been sort of beaten to death either earlier in this thread or another.
 
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I've been getting impatient about the slow progress on the US Customs pre-clearance facility at Montréal Gare Centrale, so I fell down a rabbit hole reading up on that station.

It turns out that REM will be using tracks 09 and 12, with a wide island platform between them. Unfortunately, this cuts nearly half the station off from mainline trains. The remaining tracks to the south will only be used for storing REM trains. While this setup was certainly the path of least resistance given that those were the platforms the Deux-Montagnes and Mascouche trains used to use, I think it would have been more foresightful to use tracks 07 and 10 instead. Platforms 09/10 and 11/12 are the only two platforms with multiple vertical access points along their length, and given that REM platforms are only 80 metres long, they aren't even making use of all of them. It is a silly situation to have full 8-car bilevel trains coming in from Mont-Saint-Hilaire and funneling all the passengers through the single staircase into the great hall.

Vertical Circulation highlighted in red
VIA_GareCentraleStairs.jpg

Platform 07/08 apparently had its staircase removed at some point, leaving it unusable for revenue service, but REM could have made use of its space since its platform would include the existing accesses to platform 09/10.

Anyway, the obvious place for a future US customs-sealed platform would be platform 23, which used to be a private platform for CN executives. It has never been used in revenue service since it doesn't connect directly to the great hall, but its isolation actually makes it perfect for a customs-controlled area. Locating Amtrak there also avoids the need to take any space away from VIA and the RTM.
VIA_GareCentraleCustoms.jpg

According to this floorplan (which seems to be from the 60's or 70's), there seems to be an open area adjacent to the platform with a staircase, but I don't see where the staircase comes out on the upstairs floorplan. To access that area from the main level, whichever shop is above that spot may need to be acquired.

To improve air quality in the trainshed, I wonder if it would be practical to electrify the Amtrak track with the same 750V DC third rail system that the trains already use in Penn Station at the other end of their route. That would allow the diesel engines to be off while sitting (quite deep in the trainshed) without the hassle of running the usual HEP cables.

On an unrelated note, the map suggests that there are some exits from the north end of the terminating platforms. I wonder what the state of those accesses is today.
 
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^ So in theory, VIA HFR would enter using the tracks shaded by "REM" and then move to the tracks shaded by "VIA"? Really hope we can soon see the work of the JPO and track plans. I'm sure it will generate a lot of posts in this thread :)
 
^ So in theory, VIA HFR would enter using the tracks shaded by "REM" and then move to the tracks shaded by "VIA"? Really hope we can soon see the work of the JPO and track plans. I'm sure it will generate a lot of posts in this thread :)
HFR from Toronto would come in from the South (right side), so they won't need to use the REM tracks. If they figure out how to get HFR from Quebec to Montreal through the tunnel, they would share tracks with REM, but that seems very unlikely at this point.
Agreed, I can't wait for JPO results. I'm giddy. Don't disappoint me!!
 
PS - without getting too much into a fantasy discussion, one hears almost as much angst about the over-use of Algonquin Park by campers and hikers as one hears about Banff. All of that Algonquin traffic comes into the park by car. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a local rail service across the park so people could leave their cars at the park gate?

How many campers would actually use the train to camp? I once worked with a guy who said their are 3 types of campers:
  1. The majority want to be able to drive to the campsite with a vehicle full of all the stuff they "need"
  2. Some will canoe to their campsite, to to get away from the crowds, but it means you need to be able to fit everything you need in the canoe,
  3. He would portage his canoe (I seem to remember him saying he did it twice) to find a site so remote that they wouldn't see anyone else all week. That means you need to be able to carry everything you need, including your canoe.
A train would only work for the second and third type of campers. On top of that, Hwy 60 passes right through the park and most of the campsites are off of the highway.


Developed Campgrounds - Highway 60


There was a rail line that parallels the highway. It is long since gone.
A train to Huntsville and then a bus into the park would work. If the Northlander does return, and it is set up properly, it could be used to commute to the ark. ONR could add a bus to the park. Maybe if there was ever enough demand, a rail line could be built. However, that is more fantasy than Via owning the old CN line to Thunder Bay.

I think you are talking about the old OAPS line, which traveled through the southern end of the park and was split east and west of the park in 1933 when CN decided that the trestle over Cache Lake wasn't worth repairing. I'm guessing it became Hwy-60 through the park, though I might be mistaken on that one.

There was also the old Canadian Northern line which traveled through the middle of the park and was abandoned in the late 90's. The latter ROW passes through the Achray, Brent and Kiosk Campgrounds, and would make a nice tourist train route that could double as access for campers. The only thing is the park was eager to get the trains out of the park as they made a lot of noise, so it could be a challenge to start up again.
 
HFR from Toronto would come in from the South (right side), so they won't need to use the REM tracks. If they figure out how to get HFR from Quebec to Montreal through the tunnel, they would share tracks with REM, but that seems very unlikely at this point.
Agreed, I can't wait for JPO results. I'm giddy. Don't disappoint me!!
I am very worried about HFR. We should have heard something more by now. It seems with all the talk of a new election and the uncertainty of a minority government, HFR is going to fall through the cracks which is terrible as it has great potential to improve VIA.
 

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