VIA Rail

[nfitz]

There are so many reasons the alignment in that report is impossible. For a start, look how and where it crosses the Niagara Escarpment.

Quite frankly, I don't know why the comments of Liz Sandals of all people would hold any weight.

 

[steveintoronto]

Steve,

You're assuming a lot of us haven't read all these studies. You'd probably find virtually every study on HSR posted in this forum (on this thread and others).

Yesterday, I wrote (re: albeit another study, a much more detailed and authoritative study by Gormick) "this report is stunning in detail and authority, apologies if it's already been discussed here:". What is older becomes new again with the latest VIA HFR proposal. Agreed on this particular study being sadly lacking, not the least in Schabas not even visiting the site, just using Google satellite maps. His name is tarnished by his UPX reports. However, some other posters are arguing every which way for the sake of it. If VIA is to do HFR, the Guelph and Brampton choke points have to be addressed, for VIA and GO.

There are so many reasons the alignment in that report is impossible. For a start, look how and where it crosses the Niagara Escarpment.

That's a hydro corridor, but of course, you like to make judgements without knowing the intimate details. As to gradient, if that's what you're referring to, it's far less of a challenge than sharp radii on the existing RoW. Looked at how the TGV's align? Up and down hills instead of around them.

Quite frankly, I don't know why the comments of Liz Sandals of all people would hold any weight.

Well...ummm...I realize your grasp of matters political is not large, but she is the elected MPP of Guelph. And she wants to stay that way. I was discussing this at lunch just today with some of the local pundits, both of whom are rail aficionados, and they completely agreed with my position on Guelphites wanting the world to revolve around them, but not in their backyards. A couple more GO trains departing from Guelph station will do them just fine. The "by-pass" option is the one of choice in many instances, far cheaper and less disruptive to confined corridors and city centres.

 

[kEiThZ]

If VIA is to do HFR, the Guelph and Brampton choke points have to be addressed, for VIA and GO.

The VIA HFR proposal, to the best of my knowledge, never included any planning west of Toronto.

We should be careful in conflating the two corridors. They are independent of each other. And led by different levels of government. And both without concrete proposals.

 

[nfitz]

That's a hydro corridor ...

It doesn't cross the escarpment on a Hydro corridor, it crosses west of Fourth Line in Halton Hills north of 22nd Sideroad and south of Glen Lawson Road. It leaves the existing alignment, and cuts through a quarry, making a brand new cut through the escarpment through a bit that's been preserved in the quarry operation, before proceeding through another piece of the quarry, and slamming into a 20-metre rock face. It then proceeds magically through a field that is in the process of being licensed as a quarry, and will be by the time this starts. It's not physically possible, even IF the Niagara Escarpment Commission is going to okay a new cut through the escarpment. Which they are not.

I believe we've already discussed this in detail, when that presentation came out, in the thread for that project. Perhaps you should read it - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...hener-waterloo-pearson-airport-toronto.20558/

... but of course, you like to make judgements without knowing the intimate details.

Your a newbie who's been here only a few days, and clearly are very ignorant. It doesn't follow a hydro line. And I'm very familiar with the terrain. Far more familiar than the twit in the UK who drew the line, in complete ignorance to the rules governing the escarpment, not to mention all the wetlands it cuts through (which might be more feasible).

As to gradient, if that's what you're referring to, it's far less of a challenge than sharp radii on the existing RoW. Looked at how the TGV's align? Up and down hills instead of around them.

It's not so much the escarpment, but the number of shear rock faces it cuts through.

That alignment is impossible. The only chance of getting this approved environmentally is to follow the existing alignment, which then likely forces you through Acton. Which all but sterilizes the Guelph bypass

Well...ummm...I realize your grasp of matters political is not large, but she is the elected MPP of Guelph. And she wants to stay that way.

Good grief, she'll be long out to pasture by the time this opens - if not dead. She's already been the MP for 13 years, and she'll be about 70 for the next election. I know your grasp of matters political is not large, but there's no evidence that she wants to stay around much longer.

The VIA HFR proposal, to the best of my knowledge, never included any planning west of Toronto.

Maybe not the most recent ones, but go back to the VIA studies in the late 1980s. The commissioned many detailed studies of alignment all the way from Windsor to Quebec City. This followed on from the alignments studied in the late 1970s by a Queens University research institute, partially funded by VIA Rail.

 

[steveintoronto]

The VIA HFR proposal, to the best of my knowledge, never included any planning west of Toronto.

We should be careful in conflating the two corridors. They are independent of each other. And led by different levels of government. And both without concrete proposals.

Agreed, but "Phase 2" is to London, via the north main line, albeit there are no set plans, just concepts. Frankly, I think it will be difficult, but we'll see what the report has to say.

 

[steveintoronto]

It doesn't follow a hydro line.

My apologies if I misled you, the cut-off according to the rough map starts at the hydro corridor where it crosses the track just SE of the quarry. There are many possibilities . The report, which I certainly don't praise, is a *concept* not an engineering survey. Take a look at the map. Note the route is going through "farmer's fields". That's not up the face of the escarpment. The loop is to the south of Guelph, and as anyone knows driving up Old Brock Rd (Old Hwy 6) there is no escarpment at that point.

You seem highly adept at insulting Ms Sandals. She's actually been very helpful in my dealings with Del Duca and getting some issues with GO bus division resolved as that pertains to their banning the use of velcro ties on the bike racks. (Since resolved with abject apologies and free trips on GO) . Of course, the National Post making phone calls too really shook things up at Go management.

Good grief, she'll be long out to pasture by the time this opens - if not dead.

Charming. Care to go cycling together sometime? I do over 150 kms on good days. It's the PARTY that carries the legacy more than the individual.
For some odd reason, I think Ms Sandals knows the zeitgeist of Guelph a little better than you do.

 

[nfitz]

My apologies if I misled you, the cut-off according to the rough map starts at the hydro corridor where it crosses the track just SE of the quarry. There are many possibilities . The report, which I certainly don't praise, is a *concept* not an engineering survey. Take a look at the map. Note the route is going through "farmer's fields".

It still has to cross the escarpment and other escarpment lands. You look at http://escarpment.org/landplanning/planmaps/index.php and tell me how it's going to do that, without following the existing alignment.

That's not up the face of the escarpment. The loop is to the south of Guelph, and as anyone knows driving up Old Brock Rd (Old Hwy 6) there is no escarpment at that point.

No, of course not ... but once you end up running through Acton, it makes no sense turning back south to loop around Guelph - leaving their other plan - going through Guelph.

You seem highly adept at insulting Ms Sandals.

I see no insult. She'll be 70 by the next election - I'll be surprised if she runs again. If they decide to go ahead with this after various studies in about 2020, we are talking 2030 before it opens. She'll be about 82. Heck, I may well be dead by then too - that's not an insult, that's reality. I don't see that this effects her much one way or another.

Charming. Care to go cycling together sometime? I do over 150 kms on good days.

What relevance is that to anything? Why would anyone in this thread care about this - it doesn't mitigate your ignorance about the routing options.

 

[kEiThZ]

but there's no evidence that she wants to stay around much longer.

Quite often, you'll see local MPPs jump ship if they think they're going to lose anyway. She may be one of these candidates, given her age and time in.

Maybe not the most recent ones, but go back to the VIA studies in the late 1980s. The commissioned many detailed studies of alignment all the way from Windsor to Quebec City. This followed on from the alignments studied in the late 1970s by a Queens University research institute, partially funded by VIA Rail.

I'm not discounting past studies. Just saying that VIA HFR proposal was specific to Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. And I've seen no evidence yet that VIA is interested in this Toronto-Kitchener-London proposal. Indeed, we could end up in a situation where TKL becomes entirely a GO HSR commuter operation. And VIA decides to take southern route through Mississauga and Hamilton onto London and Windsor, with through service to Ottawa and Montreal.

We're all assuming that the HSR will be separate from GO services. I don't think that's necessarily the case. We could end up in a situation where there's a GO HSR that's essentially express till Guelph or Kitchener and replaces all GO services beyond say Guelph. So Union-Pearson-Brampton-Guelph-Kitchener-Stratford/St.Mary's-London. The few added stops aren't super impactful. Kitchener would still be under an hour to Toronto. And Union-London could still be under 1.5 hrs (vs. the 77 mins promised). Anybody who needs to get off at local stops in between could get off at an HSR hub and transfer to the regular GO train.

 

[nfitz]

Quite often, you'll see local MPPs jump ship if they think they're going to lose anyway. She may be one of these candidates, given her age and time in.

Guelph is a pretty safe seat, though if it looks like the party as a whole is going to the back benches, I can see one might want to retire - on the other hand, there'd be less work then - and it's not a difficult commute.

 

[kEiThZ]

Agreed, but "Phase 2" is to London, via the north main line, albeit there are no set plans, just concepts. Frankly, I think it will be difficult, but we'll see what the report has to say.

I've never come across any specific Phase 2 proposal wrt VIA's HFR proposal. Could you find the link where you read this? I'm curious.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

I've never come across any specific Phase 2 proposal wrt VIA's HFR proposal. Could you find the link where you read this? I'm curious.

I believe that steveintoronto is referring to an interview where VIA CEO Yves Desjardins-Siciliano mused about a potential phase 2 that included extensions to London and Windsor, as well as to Quebec City. I think it was proposed as "if phase 1 is successful, then we can look at phase 2" - so by no way is it concrete at all. I can't find the article right now, but I'll post it if I find it.

 

[kEiThZ]

@alexanderglista

That makes a lot more sense. So they definitely aren't tied together. Heck, VIA could just be planning on taking the Southern Main Line to London.

 

[dowlingm]

Yesterday, I wrote (re: albeit another study, a much more detailed and authoritative study by Gormick)

Um...

The mention a couple of pages ago about CP being interested in Banff passenger was interesting. I wonder what infrastructure Hunter Harrison feels he might get the CA/AB taxpayer to pay for instead of his shareholders.

Also: just because passenger trains might go from Calgary to Lake Louise doesn't mean they will be in VIA Rail livery. Not only has Rocky Mountaineer a track record of defending what it considers its turf, but yet another isolated VIA Rail operation seems like a recipe for a lot of red ink on a balance sheet which can ill afford it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Has anyone used the bike train service to Niagara?

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Has anyone used the bike train service to Niagara?

Yes, we went with the whole family for a day trip - It's an excellent service and something fun to do.