High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

Discussion in 'Transportation and Infrastructure' started by ehlow, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. ehlow

    ehlow Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Yonge & Eglinton
    Figured I'd start a new thread since this is a newly announced project.

    - 10 year timeframe, "built in phases"
    - "very high speed rail"
    - stops in London, Kitchener, Pearson Airport, Toronto

    Check to the audio interview here:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...d-rail-in-kitchener-within-10-years-1.2610303

     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
    #1

  2. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Superstar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,499
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    As a Bramptonian (full disclosure up front) I understand the need to link London-KW-Toronto (although I question the ridership demand.....certainly question Mr. Murray's statement on Metromorning today that any/all of these new lines they announced yesterday become "revenue tools" and actually generate their own funding).....that said, this particular announcement causes me to ask some questions:

    1. Are there many places where two cities with a combined population (2011 census city popluations) 585k get a service like this that passes through another city that itself has 523k people without stopping?

    2. What does this do to Brampton's existing and planned rail service? At present we have a minimum of double tracks from Union to Mt. Pleasant (with many places in the corridor more than that) but are told (frequently) that this is not enough to support hourly off peak service given the amount of freight and VIA service on the line......to get to hourly service with the current mix we would need to have at least triple-track and that this is very difficult/expensive given the bottleneck/pinchpoint at DT Brampton. How many tracks would we need, then, to support 15 minute all day service AND this express service (presumably 15 minute local trains and, what, hourly express trains would meet each other far more frequently than hourly GO trains and the current freight/VIA) along with the freight usage?

    3. I have long been an advocate that the best way to serve Pearson was to extend/replace the people mover so that it reached the rail corridor. That way all people on that rail corridor (provided the GO service was increased) would have public transit access to the airport. If frequency is to be 15 minutes in each direction, then i believe this even more. This rail corridor intersects with all subway lines and, when finished, the Eglinton Crosstown....it could be a very valuable feeder into the airport. But, it would appear that Pearson is being talked about only in the context of this new hs connection between London/KW/Toronto.....so, again, it strikes me as strange that KW folks will be a 30 minute train ride from Pearson but many more people, living much closer to Pearson, will have no rail access to Pearson.

    It seems like a lot changed overnight....and a lot of what changed is a dramatic contradiction of what we have been hearing for the past while.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
    #2
  3. ehlow

    ehlow Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Yonge & Eglinton
    #3
  4. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Superstar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,499
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    No...but it would run hourly from the sounds of things.....and it is not clear to me how you fit 15 minute bi-directional GO service and hourly high speed limited stop service into the current corridor.....or even a corridor that has 3 tracks at Brampton......that was to be the minimum for hourly GO service and no mention of this London-KW-Train.....or so we were told.
     
    #4
    steveintoronto likes this.
  5. DKsan

    DKsan Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    85
    Asked Glen about the whole HSR/RER thing on Twitter:

    @DKsan: Hey @Glen4ONT, I appreciate the Ldn-KW-TO HSR, but will it also have one stop in #Brampton?
    @Glen4ONT: @DKsan Brampton will be served on all @GOTransit lines by fast RER electric trains running every 15 minutes not HSR.
    @DKsan: But does mean someone going from Kitchener to Brampton (like I would :D) would have to go to Toronto (or Pearson) 1st?
    @DKsan: Or does that mean there will be a fast RER local line stretching all the way out to KW?
    @Glen4ONT: There will be connections at each of 4 stations with other services.

    So four stations. London, Kitchener, Pearson, and the Union? All the London-based services would collect at London? Region of Waterloo (and probably Guelph) would collect at Kitchener? Mississauga and Brampton would collect at Pearson?
     
    #5
  6. MrsNesbitt

    MrsNesbitt Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    1
    This would frankly be somewhat overkill; electrification and improvement of GO service on the Kitchener corridor (and extension to London) is by all means welcome, but what use is this link to Pearson when that could be accomplished much more easily with a Link train extension (or even better actually funding Eglinton West to the airport so it can be linked in to the TTC network)? And of course, why choose high speed rail to London when the Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal corridor (which could sorely use it) still will remain the same VIA service?
     
    #6
  7. dunkalunk

    dunkalunk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    61
    I don't think this is a high-speed service in the way we are used to thinking about high-speed service. I have a feeling that this will mean electrification and limited track upgrades, but a lot of the grade crossings on the corridor will continue to exist.

    I have a feeling that Ontario would be waiting for federal funding before announcing anything regarding Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Last I've seen regarding the line is that it would require large portions of new Right-of-Way to be acquired between Kingston and Smiths Falls and to the east of Ottawa.
     
    #7
  8. ehlow

    ehlow Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    83
    Location:
    Yonge & Eglinton
    I'm personally not going to judge this until more details are released but I do think in a way there were political considerations here.

    Hearing the interviews and reading the news it's pretty clear that Glen Murray has been listening to the tech community in KW (not a bad thing obviously), and he has visited them pretty often.

    Spun in a political light I think this allows them to give SW Ontario something in return for support for funding tools. Not saying that there aren't valid reasons other than that, but I'm pretty sure the political aspect would have been considered to build support for funding tools.

    Spun in more positive light, it could be seen as an investment in the future of SW Ontario and the future of KW & the tech community there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
    #8
  9. Woodbridge_Heights

    Woodbridge_Heights Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    Likes Received:
    118
    Less promises and more progress... Every few years this comes up...
     
    #9
  10. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Superstar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,499
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    But I don't think there is a GO station planned for Pearson (at least no mention of it) so Brampton would collect at Union...no?
     
    #10
  11. salsa

    salsa Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    7,292
    Likes Received:
    5,427
    Location:
    North York
    And with that being said...

    [video=youtube_share;10cXpd8haQQ]http://youtu.be/10cXpd8haQQ[/video]
     
    #11
  12. Woodbridge_Heights

    Woodbridge_Heights Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    Likes Received:
    118
    There is the Go Malton stop. Barring details on where the station would go (the link mentioned a station at T2) we don't know how Brampton transit would handle a link to the proposed HSR stop. I would imagine Brampton transit would adjust routes to serve any new HSR station.
     
    #12
  13. MrsNesbitt

    MrsNesbitt Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    1
    Obviously KW and beyond needs some kind of better rail connection and this is good but I still don't understand the link to Pearson. Won't this make the UPX pretty superfluous?

    I also haven't read the report in full yet, but is anything mentioned for upgrading GO Lakeshore, considering that if they're spending this much on Kitchener something should be coming for the busiest line?
     
    #13
  14. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Superstar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,499
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    Oh...I thought what the minister was saying was that someone in Brampton wanting to go to KW or London would train eastward to Pearson or Union and then take a highspeed train back on the same tracks to their destination. Since there is no plan to take the GO train into Pearson that meant Union to me and it sounded bizarre to think someone would do that.

    Not that bizarre compared to the notion that someone standing at the Brampton station and wanting to go to London is expected to take a local bus to Bramalea and transfer to a express(ish) bus to Pearson to then take a train back through where they started to get to London.
     
    #14
  15. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Superstar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,499
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    There is no report....just a Premier at a podium and minister of transportation on radio show.

    All GO lines are being upgraded to 15 minute bi-directional service according to those sources.
     
    #15

Share This Page