VIA Rail

[lenaitch]

Isn't the ROW still legally intact though?

That I do not know. It might be largely physically intact simply by virtue of the fact that it was abandoned and nobody else came up with a reason to alter it. I don't know the legal title issues of a railway that was abandoned upwards of half a century ago, but I wonder why CP would retain title to, and pay taxes on (even at a vacant land mil rate) property they had no use for and walked away from. No doubt others know such things.

 

[crs1026]

That I do not know. It might be largely physically intact simply by virtue of the fact that it was abandoned and nobody else came up with a reason to alter it. I don't know the legal title issues of a railway that was abandoned upwards of half a century ago, but I wonder why CP would retain title to, and pay taxes on (even at a vacant land mil rate) property they had no use for and walked away from. No doubt others know such things.

I wouldn't say that CP walked away from this line. It still has telecom on it, and that may be a revenue stream for CP.

A continuous right of way has inherent value, simply because it's so costly in this day to assemble one end to end. One wonders if someone noted the end points and thought, this may welll be worth something some day.

Perhaps some of the legal proceedings around the O+Q may have affected its fate also. Has it ever been wound up as a corporate entity? I recall court cases about shareholder rights not that many years back.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I wouldn't say that CP walked away from this line. It still has telecom on it, and that may be a revenue stream for CP.

A continuous right of way has inherent value, simply because it's so costly in this day to assemble one end to end. One wonders if someone noted the end points and thought, this may welll be worth something some day.

Perhaps some of the legal proceedings around the O+Q may have affected its fate also. Has it ever been wound up as a corporate entity? I recall court cases about shareholder rights not that many years back.

- Paul

I didn't think either of the railroads operated public telecom networks anymore, but you're right, they may have a backbone they lease out if it is still intact. We had a large Bell cable cut across the farm we used to own, dating back to the early 50s. I guess the frost pushed it up over time and we caught it with the tractor one day. I wasn't about to call anybody and no blue and white trucks ever dropped by, so I assume it was out of service.
I also recall that legal issue - something to do with CP wanting to dispose of some downtown Toronto real estate that was originally O&Q. I imagine the myriad of historic railway charters and their evolution/devolution into successor companies keeps lawyers in their Audis.

 

[crs1026]

I didn't think either of the railroads operated public telecom networks anymore, but you're right, they may have a backbone they lease out if it is still intact.

I understand that Bell uses the line, don’t know if that’s a legacy thing that they acquired from the old CPCN Telecom, or they put it in themselves.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

If the HFR proposal continues through the study phase and the study isn't killed after the next federal election (I hope it won't be) here's a list of some interesting components of the infrastructure that will need to be upgraded/added that I'll be watching:

• Portion between the Union Station platforms - USRC East - Richmond Hill Line/Bala Sub to the Belleville Spur;
• Any revitalization of the bridge over the Brickworks;
• A rail over/under rail grade separation with the main CP Rail line to get to the Havelock Sub;
• Any changes to the bridges through Peterborough; and
• The location of a new Smiths Falls Station.

These are just some examples and I could be mistaken on any of them. Interested in hearing of other people's lists of HFR infrastructure upgrades they'll be interesting in reading more about.

 

[robmausser]

If the HFR proposal continues through the study phase and the study isn't killed after the next federal election (I hope it won't be) here's a list of some interesting components of the infrastructure that will need to be upgraded/added that I'll be watching:

• Portion between the Union Station platforms - USRC East - Richmond Hill Line/Bala Sub to the Belleville Spur;
• Any revitalization of the bridge over the Brickworks;
• A rail over/under rail grade separation with the main CP Rail line to get to the Havelock Sub;
• Any changes to the bridges through Peterborough; and
• The location of a new Smiths Falls Station.

These are just some examples and I could be mistaken on any of them. Interested in hearing of other people's lists of HFR infrastructure upgrades they'll be interesting in reading more about.

I feel like the brickworks bridge and Don Branch could be avoided if either a spur line was created from the CP Havlock Line to the Stouffville Line

OR, use the CN York Line to connect to it

This would avoid needing and work done on the Don Branch/Bridge, as well as avoiding the CP yard and mainline.

You could also cross at where the CP mainline intersects with Stouffville, but this is less advantageous as you still deal with the CP Yard and mainline

Would have to contend with frequencies on the Stouffville Line, but typically Metrolinx and VIA get along better than Freight lines and VIA.

 

[kEiThZ]

Looking at specific markets really shows you why stops need to be controlled.

Toronto-Ottawa: 130km from Toronto to Peterborough. 1.3 hrs at 100 kph. 290 km from Peterborough to Tremblay. 1.45 hrs at 200 kph. Assuming 5 stops (Eglinton, GTA East, Peterborough, Fallowfield) at 6 minutes each, yields 0.5 hrs. So 3.25 hrs total. This going to savage Toronto-Ottawa flying. Particularly when you account for the travel time from the airport to your destination. Having two train stops in Ottawa, both with decent transit connections, provides a huge advantage.

Ottawa-Montreal: 140 km to Coteau. 0.7 hrs at 200 kph. 65 km from Coteau to Gare Centrale. 0.65 hrs @ 100 kph. With Casselman, Alexandria, Coteau, Dorval, it's 0.4 hrs for the stops. 1.75 hrs total.

Using a similar estimation, Montreal-Quebec City gets a huge boost. It's 50 km from Gare Centrale to Mascousche via Laval. .5 hrs at 100 kph. And then 260 km from there to Gare du Palais via Trois-Riviere. 1.3 hrs at 200 kph. Add 0.3 hrs for stops at Jean-Lesage airport, Trois-Riviere and Laval. 2.1 hrs total. Incredible compared to the 3.4+ hrs from today. Trois-Riviere to Montreal is 1.25 hrs by my estimate. Commutable.

About 5 hrs from Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa (gonna assume some efficiency makes room for the Ottawa stop). The math above shows you why controlling the number of stops, particularly on the Ottawa-Montreal leg matters. Also shows you how limiting the urban areas are and why more investment on grade separation won't pay off. Making the 200 km stretch from Peterborough to Smiths Falls fully grade separated to enable 250 kph operation, saves 0.2 hrs.

There's one stretch where the payoff on grade separation is big: Ottawa-Montreal. Speed up the Ottawa-Coteau portion to 250 kph and limit stops to Alexandria and Dorval and it's now a 1.41 hrs trip. Effectively commutable. And gets Toronto-Montreal down to 4.66 hrs. 4 hrs 40 mins to Montreal consistently would be substantially competitive with driving and bussing.

I really do believe there's an investment case here. Once you start looking at the numbers and become judicious on where large upgrades are warranted and where stops have to be allowed. I am also hoping that institutional investor involvement will bring in a more ROI-focused approach on stop placement.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The brickworks bridge will probably need a full rebuild, not dissimilar to what Georgetown South did to the bridge near Weston Road.

CP overpass will probably be needed as well, but hopefully shouldn't be too expensive as there is lots of space to do it in Leaside. What is interesting is that the existing tracks run up along the CP corridor at about 8m grade below CP, then run parallel for a good distance to bring the tracks up to grade before joining the corridor - makes me wonder if it may be easier to actually do an underpass.

Smiths Falls will probably need a complete new bypass north of town to connect to the Ottawa bound tracks - along with I imagine a new station outside of town along Highway 15.

I'd also be interested to see what kinds of corridor realignments are proposed to bring track speeds up to standard - the existing corridor is quite curvy.

Finally, how they plan to connect to the tracks to Trois Rivieres in suburban Montreal will be interesting. There isn't exactly an easy way to create a direct connection - I can picture a new connection constructed along A-19.

 

[crs1026]

^Don’t forget to add in 5 minutes cushion for each meet between trains. An hourly service will have trains meeting every 30 minutes.
I am fearful that the regulator will impose any number of slow orders, especially on the Ottawa-Fallowfield stretch where the current speed limit is already quite low.
IIRC the GO study found four locations where curves had to be eased just to get to 80 mph.
- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

The brickworks bridge will probably need a full rebuild, not dissimilar to what Georgetown South did to the bridge near Weston Road.

I don't think in those cases they completely rebuilt the bridges. Didn't they just add to the existing piers and then put new trusses on top of them? cc @smallspy @crs1026

 

[Allandale25]

I feel like the brickworks bridge and Don Branch could be avoided if either a spur line was created from the CP Havlock Line to the Stouffville Line

OR, use the CN York Line to connect to it

This would avoid needing and work done on the Don Branch/Bridge, as well as avoiding the CP yard and mainline.

You could also cross at where the CP mainline intersects with Stouffville, but this is less advantageous as you still deal with the CP Yard and mainline

Would have to contend with frequencies on the Stouffville Line, but typically Metrolinx and VIA get along better than Freight lines and VIA.

All interesting ideas and thanks for including maps. I just think that GO may be very cautious on giving up track capacity to the HFR service. Also, I think CN would want rail grade separation (just like CP probably wants) to get the HFR service from the south side to the north side.

 

[nfitz]

I feel like the brickworks bridge and Don Branch could be avoided if either a spur line was created from the CP Havlock Line to the Stouffville Line

Would have to contend with frequencies on the Stouffville Line, but typically Metrolinx and VIA get along better than Freight lines and VIA.

It certainly should be examined in a feasibility study - though would it be cheaper by the time you build the necessary fly-overs (unders?), etc? The Don Branch has a relatively nice alignment, and might be cheaper than all the overpasses and underpasses that might need widening on the Lakeshore and Stouffville lines.

 

[crs1026]

^The piers on the Brickworks Viaduct are probably good for another eighty years, at least. Just pop the steel spans off the top and replace ‘em, if necessary. I don’t believe there is any need to twin this bridge, but there ought to be a small passing track just to the north. One little bit of flexibility that is needed is enough double track at each end of the route that trains do ‘t get held for meets when they are really close to the end point. That ensures that delays don’t cascade down the schedule.
My biggest interest is in how much new track CP will require. This is, after all, effectively the same CP line that (CP insists) can’t handle 2WAD GO to Milton. VIA is not going to put an hourly HFR service in each direction without its own rails. Some of the grade separations have a third track roughed in, but some do not. And, those Don River bridges are pretty big.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ Wouldn't the Milton-West Toronto vs West Toronto-Agincourt Yard be somewhat different because of the Vaughan Yard? Or would that not be a very big contributing factor in volumes measured at the east vs west divide at West Toronto?

 

[crs1026]

^ Wouldn't the Milton-West Toronto vs West Toronto-Agincourt Yard be somewhat different because of the Vaughan Yard? Or would that not be a very big contributing factor in volumes measured at the east vs west divide at West Toronto?

If anything, the conflict with HFR is greater. You have all the same trains that go thru Milton, plus the Montreal-Vaughan trains, plus the moves that shuffle power between Agincourt and Vaughan. Plus, CP can’t park eastward trains at Leaside if a VIA is nearby, that’s a no-parking zone. And, the grade uphill to Agincourt discourages letting anything get in the way of eastbounds. I just can’t see CP saying “sure, c’mon over”.

- Paul