VIA Rail

[lrt's friend]

I think the federal government would also need to release VIA from the requirement of having to serve every little town along the corridor as well. If such a dual-layered system were to be adopted, I think VIA should set a threshold that it won't service any city/town in Southern Ontario with a population less than 75,000. Focus on express links between the major population centres, and let the Province take care of the smaller communities in between.

So between Windsor and Montreal, VIA should only service: Windsor, London, Kitchener, Pearson Airport, Toronto, Markham, Peterborough, Southwest Ottawa (Fallowfield), Ottawa, Dorval (Trudeau Airport), Montreal. Leave everything in between the local, Provincial service.

Provincial service does not work when you have to cross a provincial boundary, ie Montreal-Kingston. It also doesn't make sense when you are using the exact same track for 'local' service. In that case, local and express service needs to be coordinated.

 

[gweed123]

Provincial service does not work when you have to cross a provincial boundary, ie Montreal-Kingston. It also doesn't make sense when you are using the exact same track for 'local' service. In that case, local and express service needs to be coordinated.

Agreed. The local service east of Ottawa would probably end at Hawkesbury (instead of Alexandria, which is the last stop on the Ontario side), which would be a deviation from the existing VIA route. Serving Cornwall may be complicated though.

As for express over local, yes some modifications to track configuration and schedule coordination would be needed. For most of the local though, I would think it would be running at a lower frequency than the express would be.

 

[lrt's friend]

Agreed. The local service east of Ottawa would probably end at Hawkesbury (instead of Alexandria, which is the last stop on the Ontario side), which would be a deviation from the existing VIA route. Serving Cornwall may be complicated though.

As for express over local, yes some modifications to track configuration and schedule coordination would be needed. For most of the local though, I would think it would be running at a lower frequency than the express would be.

Because there is only two stations between Ottawa and the Quebec border, it is questionable whether a local service separate from an express service would be viable. Besides, by the time you reach Alexandria, or Hawkesbury, there is some question as to whether commuters would prefer travel to Ottawa or Montreal. Note, that Hawkesbury has not had passenger rail service to Ottawa for decades, if it ever had it.

 

[gweed123]

Because there is only two stations between Ottawa and the Quebec border, it is questionable whether a local service separate from an express service would be viable. Besides, by the time you reach Alexandria, or Hawkesbury, there is some question as to whether commuters would prefer travel to Ottawa or Montreal. Note, that Hawkesbury has not had passenger rail service to Ottawa for decades, if it ever had it.

I think this would end up looking more like a commuter service than anything else. In addition to the current VIA stations in Cassleman and Alexandria, stations in Limoges and Vankleek Hill may also be warranted. I agree a 2 station line wouldn't serve much point, but a 5 station line with a greater emphasis on peak period travel patterns just might.

Also, if some inter-operational agreement can be reached between OC Transpo and STO with respect to running trains between the two provinces, such a deal may open up the potential of extending the Ottawa-based line to somewhere like Vaudreuil, and likewise extending Exo to Cornwall.

 

[crs1026]

I think the federal government would also need to release VIA from the requirement of having to serve every little town along the corridor as well. If such a dual-layered system were to be adopted, I think VIA should set a threshold that it won't service any city/town in Southern Ontario with a population less than 75,000. Focus on express links between the major population centres, and let the Province take care of the smaller communities in between.

So between Windsor and Montreal, VIA should only service: Windsor, London, Kitchener, Pearson Airport, Toronto, Markham, Peterborough, Southwest Ottawa (Fallowfield), Ottawa, Dorval (Trudeau Airport), Montreal. Leave everything in between the local, Provincial service.

That’s far too restrictive on VIA. They have a reservation/ticketing system, onboard service processes, and equipment more appropriate for a regional journey. It is impractical for GO to operate its own trains to serve Chatham or Belleville. Who wants to change trains to make a trip that is one train long today? Who wants to ride a bilevel with commuter seating from Stratford to Toronto?

Check out Amtrak’s busier corridors where state support is offered. Look at how many stops are made by Amtrak versus by a commuter or local agency. San Diego is a good example, the Northeast Corridor Regional service is another, Seattle-Portland another.

Because Amtrak has 403b legislation, it can work with the province, er, state to deliver the level of service that is desired. But Amtrak runs the trains, staffs them, handles the marketing. GO/ML will only contract all that out anyways.

I fear that even with a workable arrangement with the provinces, regional service in Ontario would look more like Michigan’s than what we have today. Detroit-Chicago is only three trains each way, with two branch routes interleaved.That’s after a hefty investment in better track. Those trains are typically several cars long.... no 2-car EMU’s (as some have suggested for Ontario) nor double deckers.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I just got reacquainted with the Hwy 7 route between Peterborough and Sharbot Lake, which I had not done in several years. While travelling along, I was reminded just how low the population is once you are away from Peterborough.. Without knowing the various ownerships of the bits and pieces of the former ROW, particularly around towns and villages, which has been abandoned east of Havelock for upwards of 50 years, I couldn't help but wonder how much it would cost to re-acquire it. It would appear that a significant part of the ROW in Sharbot Lake alone has been built over. I was also reminded, by the presence of a couple of band offices and smoke shops, that some FN bands claim this area as their traditional territory, and that any land acquisition, particularly if from the Crown, will likely end up as a protracted and ultimately costly land claims issue.
I'm certainly no transportation planner, nor have I considered the issues as much as many have here, but my layperson's view wonders if it wouldn't be better to expand the capacity of the CN/Vis Brockville corridors - however that would happen - as a better use of public funds and serve more people.

 

[kEiThZ]

I just got reacquainted with the Hwy 7 route between Peterborough and Sharbot Lake, which I had not done in several years. While travelling along, I was reminded just how low the population is once you are away from Peterborough.. Without knowing the various ownerships of the bits and pieces of the former ROW, particularly around towns and villages, which has been abandoned east of Havelock for upwards of 50 years, I couldn't help but wonder how much it would cost to re-acquire it. It would appear that a significant part of the ROW in Sharbot Lake alone has been built over. I was also reminded, by the presence of a couple of band offices and smoke shops, that some FN bands claim this area as their traditional territory, and that any land acquisition, particularly if from the Crown, will likely end up as a protracted and ultimately costly land claims issue.
I'm certainly no transportation planner, nor have I considered the issues as much as many have here, but my layperson's view wonders if it wouldn't be better to expand the capacity of the CN/Vis Brockville corridors - however that would happen - as a better use of public funds and serve more people.

That sparse population is a double-edged sword. As you point out. The study will determine this. I am not sure the band would be opposed. It's more about a price. Are they going to demand more than CN? We'll find out.

There really is nothing much past Peterborough. That's why it is so attractive. I don't think it's just the old Havelock sub. I think they may well be studying a new route flat out, or building beside roads or using hydro corridors, etc. There's options here which they wouldn't have along the Lakeshore.

I used to wonder if this was all a ploy to bargain with CN. But the more I look at it, the more this northern routing makes sense. Especially if VIA really does intend to improve service and grow ridership over time.

 

[kEiThZ]

That’s far too restrictive on VIA. They have a reservation/ticketing system, onboard service processes, and equipment more appropriate for a regional journey. It is impractical for GO to operate its own trains to serve Chatham or Belleville. Who wants to change trains to make a trip that is one train long today? Who wants to ride a bilevel with commuter seating from Stratford to Toronto?

Check out Amtrak’s busier corridors where state support is offered. Look at how many stops are made by Amtrak versus by a commuter or local agency. San Diego is a good example, the Northeast Corridor Regional service is another, Seattle-Portland another.

Because Amtrak has 403b legislation, it can work with the province, er, state to deliver the level of service that is desired. But Amtrak runs the trains, staffs them, handles the marketing. GO/ML will only contract all that out anyways.

I fear that even with a workable arrangement with the provinces, regional service in Ontario would look more like Michigan’s than what we have today. Detroit-Chicago is only three trains each way, with two branch routes interleaved.That’s after a hefty investment in better track. Those trains are typically several cars long.... no 2-car EMU’s (as some have suggested for Ontario) nor double deckers.

- Paul

If you want to compare to Amtrak, they don't have the same stop spacing as VIA on the Corridor on most of their lines (except the NEC). And they use buses to fill in. I am with gweed on this. There needs to be some stop rationalization, paired with bus services.

Two examples come to mind:

1) Between kitchener and London, there needs to be only one stop: Stratford. St. Mary's doesn't need a stop. A bus service connecting to an hourly service stopping at Stratford would do a lot more.

2) What's the need to stop at Casselman (pop.3550 ), Alexandria (pop. 10 100) and Coteaux (pop. 4600 ) between Ottawa and Montreal. Even stopping every second HFR train at Casselman and Coteaux makes no sense. A corridor like this needs the HFR to run through, stop only at Alexandria and Dorval between Montreal and Ottawa. Bus service or some kind D/EMU service originating at Alexandria to Ottawa's station in the West and Dorval in the East would let them connect to large regional transport hubs. And heck, there's already commuter bus services to Ottawa from Casselman and Alexandria by 417 Bus Lines. Just need to coordinate with VIA.

 

[gweed123]

That’s far too restrictive on VIA. They have a reservation/ticketing system, onboard service processes, and equipment more appropriate for a regional journey. It is impractical for GO to operate its own trains to serve Chatham or Belleville. Who wants to change trains to make a trip that is one train long today? Who wants to ride a bilevel with commuter seating from Stratford to Toronto?

Check out Amtrak’s busier corridors where state support is offered. Look at how many stops are made by Amtrak versus by a commuter or local agency. San Diego is a good example, the Northeast Corridor Regional service is another, Seattle-Portland another.

Because Amtrak has 403b legislation, it can work with the province, er, state to deliver the level of service that is desired. But Amtrak runs the trains, staffs them, handles the marketing. GO/ML will only contract all that out anyways.

I fear that even with a workable arrangement with the provinces, regional service in Ontario would look more like Michigan’s than what we have today. Detroit-Chicago is only three trains each way, with two branch routes interleaved.That’s after a hefty investment in better track. Those trains are typically several cars long.... no 2-car EMU’s (as some have suggested for Ontario) nor double deckers.

- Paul

I'm not suggesting it be run by GO. I'm suggesting it be run by the Province (i.e. Metrolinx). It can be created as a separate division within Metrolinx, similar to how UP is a distinct division from GO. It's purpose would be to cater to inter-city travel between smaller municipalities and larger hubs (London, Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa). Maybe call it ONrail or something. The rolling stock would be similar to UPX as opposed to GO, since it would be tailored for longer-distance travel with lower demand.

 

[p_xavier]

If you want to compare to Amtrak, they don't have the same stop spacing as VIA on the Corridor on most of their lines (except the NEC). And they use buses to fill in. I am with gweed on this. There needs to be some stop rationalization, paired with bus services.

Two examples come to mind:

1) Between kitchener and London, there needs to be only one stop: Stratford. St. Mary's doesn't need a stop. A bus service connecting to an hourly service stopping at Stratford would do a lot more.

2) What's the need to stop at Casselman (pop.3550 ), Alexandria (pop. 10 100) and Coteaux (pop. 4600 ) between Ottawa and Montreal. Even stopping every second HFR train at Casselman and Coteaux makes no sense. A corridor like this needs the HFR to run through, stop only at Alexandria and Dorval between Montreal and Ottawa. Bus service or some kind D/EMU service originating at Alexandria to Ottawa's station in the West and Dorval in the East would let them connect to large regional transport hubs. And heck, there's already commuter bus services to Ottawa from Casselman and Alexandria by 417 Bus Lines. Just need to coordinate with VIA.

I use VIA as a commuter train and many others do too. There's no alternative service for transit between Ottawa and Alexandria anymore.

 

[nfitz]

I use VIA as a commuter train and many others do too. There's no alternative service for transit between Ottawa and Alexandria anymore.

While convenient, there's no requirement for such service to be provided in Ontario.

There are far bigger population centres than Alexandria (population 2,845) that don't have any bus or rail service. What about St. Thomas - population 62,000?

The whole discussion seems moot though - as VIA isn't planning on dropping this service ... I'd think Cornwall, Belleville, and Brockville would be in more danger!

 

[kEiThZ]

I use VIA as a commuter train and many others do too. There's no alternative service for transit between Ottawa and Alexandria anymore.

It's why I said the two stops between Ottawa and Montreal should Alexandria and Dorval.

 

[nfitz]

It's why I said the two stops between Ottawa and Montreal should Alexandria and Dorval.

Not every train needs to stop at every stop. Dorval is a bit of a no-brainer, given how well it's used, and how slow trains are from St-Henri to Central station. But I see no reason to stop serving Casselman, Coteau, and Fallowfield.

Or heck, running a 3-hour milk-run through Cornwall, Brockville, and Smiths Falls. It's a shame there aren't any new RDCs coming, to do such things like that ... or running a regular London-Sarnia shuttle.

 

[Allandale25]

Just out of curiosity, how realistic is it to expect that the contracts for the consultants to do the $71 million worth of studies for HFR will be signed before the federal election in the fall?

 

[lenaitch]

That sparse population is a double-edged sword. As you point out. The study will determine this. I am not sure the band would be opposed. It's more about a price. Are they going to demand more than CN? We'll find out.

There really is nothing much past Peterborough. That's why it is so attractive. I don't think it's just the old Havelock sub. I think they may well be studying a new route flat out, or building beside roads or using hydro corridors, etc. There's options here which they wouldn't have along the Lakeshore.

I used to wonder if this was all a ploy to bargain with CN. But the more I look at it, the more this northern routing makes sense. Especially if VIA really does intend to improve service and grow ridership over time.

A substantially new ROW is something I hadn't considered; I thought the proposal was the old old O&Q ROW, with tweaks (I read it once but it has been a while).

The way I understand it, there are several FN bands in the area. They are different in that they are 'nation-to-nation' constitutional agreements. I am reminded of a ~5km 2-lane section of Hwy 400 that was stranded for several years because of protracted negotiations with a FNT. Admittedly, negotiations with CN aren't a walk in the park either.