VIA Rail

[robmausser]

Some more info on the RDC's

http://www.theobserver.ca/2016/02/21/self-propelled-rail-cars-appearing-around-southwestern-ontario

Via should try and scoop some more of these up from other transit agencies that are retiring them in the USA and use them in other routes of low ridership.

Since they already have recently refurbished these the process to do so is already in place.

 

[ottbike]

Some more info on the RDC's

http://www.theobserver.ca/2016/02/21/self-propelled-rail-cars-appearing-around-southwestern-ontario

Via should try and scoop some more of these up from other transit agencies that are retiring them in the USA and use them in other routes of low ridership.

Since they already have recently refurbished these the process to do so is already in place.

Just buy new DMUs that meet Canadian crash worthiness standards...

The only reason via is refurbishing RDCs is because they already own them, and there has not been much appetite over the years for brand new rolling stock, just refurbishing what they already own (f40s, LRCs, RDCs, etc).

 

[ottbike]

Just a note on the Ottawa-Montreal section. Via Rail owns the Prescott-Russel pathway corridor which the City of Ottawa leases. I took a picture this summer of a sign on the pathway which shows that the corridor "may" be used for a future Via Service. Via might end up using that corridor as part of HFR between tor-ott-mon.

 

[Urban Sky]

Just a note on the Ottawa-Montreal section. Via Rail owns the Prescott-Russel pathway corridor which the City of Ottawa leases. I took a picture this summer of a sign on the pathway which shows that the corridor "may" be used for a future Via Service. Via might end up using that corridor as part of HFR between tor-ott-mon.

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I don't think you have fully understood VIA Rail's main motivation for pursuing HFR: establish a Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto route in the most cost-effective manner which minimizes track sharing with other railroads to the absolute minimum and thus maximizes its control over the timetabling and dispatching of its own trains. What is the benefit of reactivating the old CPR Ottawa-Vanleek Hill-Rigaud-Vaudreuil route which would entice VIA to void their investments into acquiring and continuously upgrading the Alexandria subdivision?

 

[ottbike]

Yes I am aware. It's just interesting to point out that via actively owns this corridor. If they were so set on the Alexandria sub, I would have assumed they would not still be holding onto the Vankleek Hill corridor, for whatever reason.

 

[crs1026]

I suspect those signs originated in VIA's legal department. Those lines may be banked, but that doesn't imply that there is any active plan to revive them. It's just to prevent a legal argument that the lines had been 'abandoned'.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Recall that it's been some 30 years or so since VIA purchased the subdivision through Vankleek Hill. Back then, Alexandria wasn't really an option because of the freight, and the plan was to built virtually a new alignment from Ottawa to Toronto. Also, Alexandria has a lot more curves on it, at least east of Casselman.

Now that the plan seems to be more incremental, with slower trains, there's less chance that Vankleek Hill would be used.

 

[robmausser]

Just buy new DMUs that meet Canadian crash worthiness standards...

The only reason via is refurbishing RDCs is because they already own them, and there has not been much appetite over the years for brand new rolling stock, just refurbishing what they already own (f40s, LRCs, RDCs, etc).

Maybe scoop up the ones used currently on the UPX since Metrolinx has claimed they want to replace them for electrification rather than convert.

They are high platform but the DMU's have the ability to be fitted with stairs. Wouldn't be any different than the current coaches Via uses.

 

[kEiThZ]

I can't see any proposal that bypasses Kingston, Belleville and Oshawa to be very sellable. HSR or HFR, whatever it is, has to benefit several communities along the route. That'll be the only way to build support.

 

[Megaton327]

I can't see any proposal that bypasses Kingston, Belleville and Oshawa to be very sellable. HSR or HFR, whatever it is, has to benefit several communities along the route. That'll be the only way to build support.

I've seen half the passengers on my trains to/from Ottawa turnover at Kingston on a routine basis. Lots of demand there for Via service at any time of year, not to mention peak University travel periods (year start+end, and holidays) when it gets absolutely insane. I've seen lots of passengers use Oshawa and even Guildwood too--why backtrack all the way to Union to head to Ottawa.

Nope, I don't see any way Via tells all those passengers "sorry, tough luck" to run a route through the middle of nowhere solely servicing Toronto, Peterborough (where there is zero current ridership) and Ottawa. They might just as well cut their direct Toronto-Ottawa/Montreal service and have trains from Toronto end at Kingston...they'll probably lose the same number of passengers either way.

 

[gweed123]

I've seen half the passengers on my trains to/from Ottawa turnover at Kingston on a routine basis. Lots of demand there for Via service at any time of year, not to mention peak University travel periods (year start+end, and holidays) when it gets absolutely insane. I've seen lots of passengers use Oshawa and even Guildwood too--why backtrack all the way to Union to head to Ottawa.

Nope, I don't see any way Via tells all those passengers "sorry, tough luck" to run a route through the middle of nowhere solely servicing Toronto, Peterborough (where there is zero current ridership) and Ottawa. They might just as well cut their direct Toronto-Ottawa/Montreal service and have trains from Toronto end at Kingston...they'll probably lose the same number of passengers either way.

Via could potentially work something out with GO, so that they end up doing the 'milk runs' along that corridor, and Via does express T-O-M on a different one. GO could run a train that does all stops at Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Cobourg, Port Hope, and Oshawa, before running express to Union (once it overlaps the RER service area).

By the same token, that could be GO's reason to expand into the Ottawa area, running Ottawa-Kingston (Kingston, Gananoque, Brockville, Smiths Falls, Richmond, Fallowfield, Ottawa), and Ottawa-Arnprior (Ottawa, Bells Corners, Kanata, Carp, Arnprior). I would include something that runs along the Highway 17 corridor (Orleans, Cumberland, Rockland), but unfortunately there isn't a rail line there.

I realize that this would be a drastic expansion of GO's mandate beyond a GTHA-specific commuter service, but it could be useful in the long run.

PS: I'd like to see Toronto-North Bay added under the same program.

 

[Megaton327]

Via could potentially work something out with GO, so that they end up doing the 'milk runs' along that corridor, and Via does express T-O-M on a different one. GO could run a train that does all stops at Kingston, Napanee, Belleville, Trenton, Cobourg, Port Hope, and Oshawa, before running express to Union (once it overlaps the RER service area).

By the same token, that could be GO's reason to expand into the Ottawa area, running Ottawa-Kingston (Kingston, Gananoque, Brockville, Smiths Falls, Richmond, Fallowfield, Ottawa), and Ottawa-Arnprior (Ottawa, Bells Corners, Kanata, Carp, Arnprior). I would include something that runs along the Highway 17 corridor (Orleans, Cumberland, Rockland), but unfortunately there isn't a rail line there.

I realize that this would be a drastic expansion of GO's mandate beyond a GTHA-specific commuter service, but it could be useful in the long run.

PS: I'd like to see Toronto-North Bay added under the same program.

Sorry, that seems pretty far-fetched. GO is a commuter rail service, not a regional passenger service. For instance, if GO replaces Via from Kingston to Toronto, where exactly would passengers put all of their luggage? Would GO introduce all-new coaches and luggage cars? At that point why is GO operating instead of Via? And what would the fares be, and again, why not just have Via continue? In addition to luggage, GO has no onboard food/beverage service or business class, no Wi-Fi, power outlets, tray tables, etc., and the GO seats with incredibly limited legroom when people sit opposite you is unpleasant for a 1-hour ride, I don't imagine that people with luggage, using laptops, and eating/drinking will enjoy sitting in such cramped seats from Toronto to Kingston.

 

[gweed123]

Sorry, that seems pretty far-fetched. GO is a commuter rail service, not a regional passenger service.

It is right now, but there isn't any legislative reason stopping it from also becoming an interurban passenger service for around 2 hour or less trips (Kingston, Niagara Falls, London). GO already runs services to Barrie and Kitchener, which by almost all definitions are outside of the GTHA.

For instance, if GO replaces Via from Kingston to Toronto, where exactly would passengers put all of their luggage? Would GO introduce all-new coaches and luggage cars?

With the introduction of RER, many of GO's current coaches and locomotives will become superfluous. They could be upgraded pretty easily to accommodate luggage, with the over-wheel sections at either end of the car being converted for that purpose. The seats could also be re-upholstered to be more comfortable for a longer trip.

At that point why is GO operating instead of Via? And what would the fares be, and again, why not just have Via continue? In addition to luggage, GO has no onboard food/beverage service or business class, no Wi-Fi, power outlets, tray tables, etc., and the GO seats with incredibly limited legroom when people sit opposite you is unpleasant for a 1-hour ride, I don't imagine that people with luggage, using laptops, and eating/drinking will enjoy sitting in such cramped seats from Toronto to Kingston.

Via's new coach cars have a 50/50 setup, very similar to a GO train. Wifi is relatively easy to add. Drink and food service would be a loss, but hardly crucial. If really needed, vending machines could be put in in a few of the cars, possibly next to the baggage areas.

As was mentioned earlier, most of the ridership coming from Kingston is students, so a fare around what Via's current Escape fare is would probably be appropriate. Students are generally pretty price conscious, and are generally willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort for a lower price. I suppose trains could feature a business class car, which would be a GO car with a little bit more retrofitting done, or maybe buying UPX-style cars.

It would certainly be a departure from what we see GO as now, but I don't really see it as completely unheard of when you look at international examples. Deutsche Bahn's Regio service is pretty similar to what I'm proposing.

 

[kEiThZ]

@gweed123 . I see your point. But I think it's really impractical to consider GO service that far. Not unless we are talking some kind of HSR GO service where Kingston is now 1 hr to downtown Toronto. WRT Ottawa, honestly OC Transpo is better placed to run some commuter services to those communities.

@Megaton327 . This is why I find this whole VIA HFR pitch bizarre. I do think it's realistic possibility it may happen, out of sheer frustration that there's no intention to spend more money. But I question the ridership if you cut some of those stops. You can ditch Port hope, Trenton, and Brockville or Smiths Falls. Beyond that, they are pushing it. I don't get how they think they'll get lots more ridership replacing stops like Belleville and Kingston with Peterborough.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I can't see any proposal that bypasses Kingston, Belleville and Oshawa to be very sellable. HSR or HFR, whatever it is, has to benefit several communities along the route. That'll be the only way to build support.

Agree - and you can always have Express HSR and multistop HSR that varies by demand.

AoD