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VIA Rail

China as well. I was in a city in northeastern China that most of you've probably never heard of. The ticket windows are outside, like the box office at Skydome, and passengers and baggage are screened before entering the station. It was quicker and simpler than an airport security check.
 
I haven't seen the VIA platforms in years.. Cheaper to fly.
Nope.
Not these days.

VIA Tuesday Sales make it really cheap.

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All in, all baggage fees (lugging 2 bags, regular size and carryon), terminal fees, improvement fees, HST, that's the charge that shows up on my VISA!!!!!!!

(Book on Tuesdays, for a later trip of any day in the week)
9 out of 10 times, I manage to catch all-in fares much lower than airplane.

And this is just a midwinter sale, not even a Tuesday sale that occurs 52 times a year.

So for those always getting higher fares than airfares -- you're not searching properly. These fares are ludriciously common as long as you book several weeks in advance (and avoid holidays). And if you're unlucky to be booking less-than-far-enough-in-advance (e.g. 13 days in advance instead of 35 days in advance) then often a Saturday early morning departure can be much cheaper than a Friday night departure -- so browse the adjacent days easily via the tabs at the top (as seen in screenshot).

9 out of 10 times I pay less $60 (HST/bags included!!) for one-way Ottawa-Toronto, and often less than $50. Occasionally, even less than $40. And $19+HST for Ottawa-Montreal in the best-ever sale I caught ($22 all in -- very similar price as a GOtrain trip between Toronto and Niagara Falls). All fees, taxes, baggage fees, HST included!

These aren't two-seat-per-coach prices, they actually seem to open a huge number of economy seats at these prices during Tuesday fare sales as well as offpeak sales. Ludriciously common in my experience when executing fare searches during a Tuesday (day of week to do the fare searching -- does not have to be actual departure day of week) for a trip one-to-two months in advance...

My experience is that as long as you're searching (during a Tuesday) at four weeks or more in advance, it's effortless to find the low prices. The prices linger all day long and week on week, the cheap seats slowly disappearing, as the last-minute bookers scoop up the remaining dozens of cheap seats. Cheap VIA seats are ludriciously easy to book if you're booking well in advance during a Tuesday fare sale (far more, the more weeks in advance you book). You do have difficulty when trying to book holidays (Thanksgiving, Xmas, etc), but I've also found ways around it such as booking much further in advance, and being creative such as checking fares on days before/after -- I've also travelled early Christmas morning or travelling the early Monday morning after a Thanksgiving weekend -- and still paid less than $70 all-in, sometimes under $50, tax included for travelling one-way the holiday weekend, or under $100-$140 roundtrip holiday and under $80 roundtrip in the best offpeak sales, all-in, HST and baggage included. Certainly I booked way more than 4 weeks in advance. But just try to get airfares even remotely that low during the holidays!

Train fares are easily (once you get familiar with the train-specific searching quirks, then less than 5 minutes of fare searching) much cheaper than air fares, for trips within the TOM triangle, provided one learns to search train fares even one-third as well as other people typically search airfares.

Besides, air often cost over $1000 when booking last minute or premium seats / first class / refundable seats so people have learned to search for discount air. But many people haven't learned to properly search train fares!

We can love those $99 Porter air trips to Ottawa, but with the extra fees, it's easily over $100 more than a properly-booked-in-advance train during a good VIA sale (those VIA sales happens far more often than air fare sales nowadays). Double that for a roundtrip. I find that a properly booked-in-advance VIA Tuesday sale roundtrips Toronto-Ottawa is usually about $150-$200 cheaper than Porter 50%-60% sale fares. Besides, VIA Tuesday sales happen far more often than Porter 50%-off sales... Certainly you might occasionally find a better Porter deal for a specific day than VIA (especially if one haven't been timing the VIA sales the way one habitually time the Porter sales).....until you repeat your VIA train search the following Tuesday, and then one has the buyer remorse if you were trying to save the dollar. The prices do not bottom-out at the same time, for those people impulse-searching VIA during a Porter fare sale. But VIA fares do bottom out far more often. WAY more so, and way more repeatedly. Many get stuck in this sale timing habit optimized for airfares, and totally miss the even-more-frequent low train fares. (Hey, I love Porter too, and fly them to Ottawa, but if you're trying to get the best savings, you must watch BOTH sales that occur at different timings -- and VIA's sales are far more often than Porter's -- when you count the 52 Tuesday sales a year that VIA has, above and beyond other sales.)

Those who say air is cheaper than train, aren't searching properly.

Train fare search methodology is a bit different than airfare search methodology, but actually is much simpler (takes less time to find good fares) once you learn the tricks -- easiest rule for VIA beginners is "Visit the VIA website on a Tuesday several weeks in advance of your desired trip" and secondarily, "browse the adjacent calendar days"

So, NO -- flying is NOT cheaper than train -- for sale-versus-sale
 

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Hot damn.. that is much cheaper than when I used to travel frequently in the TOM triangle.

Now if they can only have faster trains and no milk runs I'd be sold.
 
Hot damn.. that is much cheaper than when I used to travel frequently in the TOM triangle.

Now if they can only have faster trains and no milk runs I'd be sold.

They have express trains that make no stops between Toronto and Ottawa (they do stop at Fallowfield though I believe). Haven't done Toronto-Montreal, but I assume they offer a similar thing. I took one of the Toronto-Ottawa trains, and it did it in 3h58m. Certainly comparable to flying when you factor in security and getting to and from the airports.
 
Q. In other areas do trains show up as an option for travel between city pairs alongside air options? Eg: If I'm searching Expedia or Travelocity for a trip from Toronto to Montreal to my recollection the website will not present me with the side by side option of taking a flight or train for my trip. If it does not than I see this as a gap in service providers that is missing for VIA. Not being able to be presented as alternative to a flight on one of these sites is a missed opportunity IMO. With prices so cheap in the Tuesdays sale example above it would be attractive to a traveller if given the option.

People in general are lazy and won't often go out of their way to search for better prices if it means leaving the expedia site and going over to the VIA site for example.
 
People in general are lazy and won't often go out of their way to search for better prices if it means leaving the expedia site and going over to the VIA site for example.
True!

Hot damn.. that is much cheaper than when I used to travel frequently in the TOM triangle.

Now if they can only have faster trains and no milk runs I'd be sold.
In the $1 billion VIA+freight stimulus a few years ago (triple tracking Kingston) they did some work to shave half an hour off the trips several years ago, with mixed success. They finally reintroduced an improved daily express schedule that runs slightly less than 4 hours between Toronto and Ottawa, with times as low as 3h46min for the first time in a long time.

Now it's closer to 4h but it's achieved on a couple of express trips a day (see screenshot for the 4h trip times -- those are the expresses). All things considered, not too dissimilar downtown-to-downtown experience (trip to airport, security, and all) if you're having to fly Pearson. With a home-printed boarding pass (or showing my email with barcode), I can enter the front doors of the train station 5-7 minutes prior to departure, with bags, and have always still manageed to step onto the train.

Arriving late, there's no lineup, so I get to go directly to the gate and they scan the barcode displayed in the email on my smartphone, beep, and I step on. Sleep or surf for 4 hours. And I feel energetic stepping off the train at Union arriving from Ottawa -- already directly downtown without the "Exhausted At Airport Arrivals" feeling. My record for late-boarding a VIA train was arriving at the station 2 minutes before departure. I wouldn't recommend it. But arriving at station 10 minutes prior to departure, is super plenty of time if you've already got your boarding pass barcode (printed on any paper or displayed on any screen -- like merely displaying the VIA boarding pass confirmation email!). They use wireless scanners now.

Shave another hour-plus off with a new VIA passenger-only ROW, and that becomes a big winner. Especially with a bit of freshening up (renovated or new VIA trainsets, Ottawa station freshen-up, Ottawa LRT finished, Toronto Union revitalization finished).
 
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I've arrived stepped onto trains less than a minute before departure before.. You can essentially walk right on. This wasn't VIA (Thalys), but its no different in setup in Canada.
 
Just came back from Spain. Our bags were screened at the mezzanine level prior to being let down to the platform level in Cordoba, and prior to enterring the station at my transfer point in Antequerra.

Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Moscow, and St. Petersburg are locations I've seen first hand in addition to the London Eurostar terminal you mentioned.

I think I've only taken about 10 HSR trains within Europe, so for 6 of them to do a baggage X-Ray is fairly high percentage.
Since I've taken virtually all of those HSR trains in Europe you haven't taken so far (TGV in France/Germany, Thalys in France/Belgium/Germany, ICE in Germany/Austria/Switzerland/Belgium/Netherlands/Denmark, Cisalpino in Switzerland/Italy, Frecciarossa and Italo in Italy, X2000 in Sweden, SuperCity in Slovenia) and none of them had any checks or barriers to prevent you from accessing the platform or train, I believe we can conclude that Russia, Spain and the Eurostar are the only HSR systems in Europe to have airport-style security checks...
 
I believe we can conclude that Russia, Spain and the Eurostar are the only HSR systems in Europe to have airport-style security checks...

It may vary from country to country and from day to day based on threat levels. I don't recall any security when traveling from Munich to Vienna a few years back, either. But after the attempted attack on the Brussels-Paris train, I'm surprised there's not more security there. And I suspect this might change eventually. No security at all = massive soft target. And terrorists tend to love transportation as targets, since the disruption caused is wider than immediate target destruction.

Mind you, I didn't find the security all that intrusive. Just a bag scan and metal detector. None of that remove shoes and belt like an airport.
 
It may vary from country to country and from day to day based on threat levels. I don't recall any security when traveling from Munich to Vienna a few years back, either. But after the attempted attack on the Brussels-Paris train, I'm surprised there's not more security there. And I suspect this might change eventually. No security at all = massive soft target. And terrorists tend to love transportation as targets, since the disruption caused is wider than immediate target destruction.

Mind you, I didn't find the security all that intrusive. Just a bag scan and metal detector. None of that remove shoes and belt like an airport.
The answer is rather simple: the facilities to perform pre-boarding screenings simply don't exist at those stations where HSR has not been assigned its segregated terminal area. In Frankfurt main station, ICE trains like Zürich-Frankfurt-Berlin will arrive on the platform and leave within 5 minutes while a regional train will be ready for boarding at the same platform (just across) and in non-dead-ending stations like Köln (Cologne) Hbf the same will happen within 2 minutes. As you claim to have visited major rail stations in Europe other than those designed for Spanish, Russian or Eurostar services, please tell me how such pre-boarding checks with luggage scans could be performed without having to cancel 30-50% of all rail services or completely rebuilt all HSR stops.

As for your "soft target" argument, maybe Europe is intelligent enough to understand that it is useless to start sealing off some of them unless you can seal off all of them, because if you start sealing off HSR trains, terrorists will instead simply choose other targets and I don't think you would want to live in a country where long-distance trains have a boarding cut-off time of 30 minutes, where you can't bring liquids on board of them, where HSR lines are sealed off so that you can't even make pictures of trains, where you cannot even enter a rail station or shopping centers (or any other public space with a significant number of people) without lengthy security checks. Yes, you would almost certainly live safer in such a country, but voluntarily waiving same of our most treasured civil rights in the fear of terrorist attacks would indeed stop Terrorist attacks once for all, because it would already grant them everything they are fighting for (destroying the Western way of life by living in freedom, liberty and free from fear). Therefore, if there was a terrorist attack today on any city, transportation terminal or service in Canada, I would not change my habits an inch and even go to exactly the place or take the service affected to show that I'm "not even scared", to use the words of the Parisians who reclaimed peacefully their public spaces after the December attacks, thus showing the only non-self-victimizing response you can show to the Terrorists and their barbaric acts.

I don't know if it is a North American phenomenon to focus on incident mitigation rather than incident prevention, but the approach is as inappropriate when dealing with rail safety as it is when dealing with the threat of terrorism. Maybe we can agree to trust our intelligence services to prevent attacks rather than accepting infringements of our personal liberties just to divert them to the next-softer target. The only way for Canada to become absolutely free from any threat of terrorism, would be to either eliminate any liberties or to consist only of isolated and dispersed communities, thus to become either North Korea or Greenland...
 
Now if they can only have faster trains and no milk runs I'd be sold.
Oh, I forgot, if you haven't been won over by taking train over planes yet...

Don't forget 100% nonstop LTE cellular reception for Bell, Telus and Rogers

There's now nonstop reception along all VIA routes in entire TOM triangle.

Especially on newer phones (and iPads) with the great 700Mhz LTE band which broadcasts a very far distance in the rural areas. The reception has been improving over the years and now I've got a nonstop solid LTE connection along all VIA routes in the TOM triangle. No drops to EDGE or 3G, it's staying in LTE nowadays on the newest phones. Phone, tablet, and laptop freedom. Text, text, text to your heart's content. And even make a couple of phone calls (they ask that you speak quiet, though).

And that's not even including the free VIA WiFi on the trains. VIA has installed free WiFi on all their trains for the TOM triangle. And they now uses more-reliable low-latency 3G/LTE backhaul rather than high-latency satellite Internet.

Take that, Row44 and GoGo Inflight Internet! Which almost always cost extra, and much slower Internet. And rarely available on the Ottawa-Montreal-Toronto flights. And isn't available on Porter yet. And even with other carriers, you almost always can't text/call from the flights in the TOM triangle.
 
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I've been following the VIA 50/50 seating arrangement debate on another forum. I'd hate to be travelling backwards for 4-5 hours, and you're still unable to choose your own seat unless you book online, then call customer service if you don't like your seat assignment. (I often do this when I find that the seat automatically assigned to me ends up being one where the window doesn't line up.)

The reason why VIA wants to implement 50-50 seats is so it can quickly reverse trains without wyeing them; Montreal Central Station being the best example. Trains will usually pull into the station, unload, reverse to Pointe-St-Charles, wye, and back into Central for the next departure. I've been on trains from Toronto that wyed at Pointe-St-Charles before unloading us at Central Station. VIA has to wye trains on the corridor at Quebec City, Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto, London, Sarnia, and Windsor as well.

(Sidenote: VIA's Canadian is not wyed at Toronto, despite it being the terminus of that train. That's why it heads straight down the Bala Sub tp Union, unloads, continues to the TMC at Mimico for cleaning, servicing and maintenance, and backs in to Union for the next departure, running up the Newmarket Sub, changing to the York Sub at Snider - it backs up to make this connection - then up the Bala heading north-west.)

But how does VIA then want to reverse trains without wyeing them? They'd need new bi-directional locomotives, locomotives on both ends in "top and tail" operation, or cab or "cabbage" cars. Or they'd have to detach the locomotive, wye that, and run it around the passenger cars. Instituting 50/50 seats before figuring this out seems bass-ackwards, and isn't customer-friendly.

I don't see why it's either of 50/50 seating or turning around the trains. Why can't they just turn around the seats at the end of the line?

As for the control issue, I figure they'd just run double-ended trainsets. The last few times I took the Toronto-Sarnia train it has had a P42 on one end and an F40 on the other. Maybe in the TOM corridor they'd bump up the train length at the same time. Though that graphic from Ottawa indicated only 6-car platforms, which seems rather short.
 
If we're talking about riding backwards for 5 hours, there's the first problem....modest speed increases are needed so trips aren't that long.

I have always been impressed by how small an issue riding backwards is in other countries. It's a very North American thing to expect to ride facing forwards. For that matter, it's a very North American thing to look out the window at all. Most people just set up their laptop or tablet, or pull out a magazine. Facing tables are favoured by business folks travelling together, lets them work while they are travelling. Also enjoyed by couples.

Rotating seats are a mechanical complexity that can wait until speed and frequency of service is improved.

Way back when the LRC's were first ordered, there was talk of 1-5-1 trainsets. It quickly became apparent that the rest of VIA's fleet was in bad repair, so the second locomotives were stolen to pull non-LRC trains. As things have progressed, consists have been getting shorter. I would be happy if every VIA corridor train were 6 coaches long. Trains too long for the platforms is a problem VIA would love to have.

- Paul
 
Oh, I forgot, if you haven't been won over by taking train over planes yet...

Don't forget 100% nonstop LTE cellular reception for Bell, Telus and Rogers

There's now nonstop reception along all VIA routes in entire TOM triangle.

Especially on newer phones (and iPads) with the great 700Mhz LTE band which broadcasts a very far distance in the rural areas. The reception has been improving over the years and now I've got a nonstop solid LTE connection along all VIA routes in the TOM triangle. No drops to EDGE or 3G, it's staying in LTE nowadays on the newest phones. Phone, tablet, and laptop freedom. Text, text, text to your heart's content. And even make a couple of phone calls (they ask that you speak quiet, though).

And that's not even including the free VIA WiFi on the trains. VIA has installed free WiFi on all their trains for the TOM triangle. And they now uses more-reliable low-latency 3G/LTE backhaul rather than high-latency satellite Internet.

Take that, Row44 and GoGo Inflight Internet! Which almost always cost extra, and much slower Internet. And rarely available on the Ottawa-Montreal-Toronto flights. And isn't available on Porter yet. And even with other carriers, you almost always can't text/call from the flights in the TOM triangle.

I love VIA compared to flying within TOM as much as the next person, but that's not quite accurate. I travelled Via from Toronto to Ottawa and back at the end of December 2015--I have an iPhone 6 Plus on Rogers and I got LTE only about 80% of the time (at much lower speeds than when in a city+relatively stationary, of course; maybe about 20% the speed on average), and about 5% of the time there was either no signal, or it claimed to have 1 bar of 3G or EDGE but failed to actually load any data; during that 5% of the time where my data didn't work, I hopped onto the train wifi (which I normally avoid for being too slow) and it also failed to load data. I spent a lot of the trips asleep or very relaxed listening to music with my phone in my pocket, too, so that estimated 20% of the time without LTE and 5% without any data access or usable wifi is taken from specifically the times that I was trying to use my phone, not the whole trip.

I'm sure cell coverage maps are very happy to claim full LTE coverage in all sorts of places, but both on VIA and just generally using my phone across Southern Ontario, advertising and reality are not the same thing.
 

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