VIA Rail

[nephersir7]

How can REM (EMR) be compatible enough to use the CN track (yes, the same CN that "won't let catenary on their RoW") over the South Viaduct along with Amtrak and VIA?

The REM will definitely have its own dedicated pair of tracks on this viaduct. It's wide enough for 4 tracks. The only track sharing would be in the tunnel, north of Central Station.

Note the train length appearing in the rendition, and this is appearing in others too. This is not what was originally touted. The original plan called for 'single pods'.

You're wrong. Since the inception of the project, the REM trains were always planned to be up to 4 cars long (80m), just like in this rendition

 

[robmausser]

The REM trains themselves cannot be EMU's however, as the new Champlain bridge going up cannot accommodate the weight of even EMU's, only light rail trains.

The REM should use Tram-Trains, that are compatible with mainline standards in the Mont Royal tunnel as well as being lightweight for the REM network.

Hey look! Alstom makes one

http://www.alstom.com/products-serv.../rail-systems/trains/products/citadis-dualis/

 

[nephersir7]

The REM trains themselves cannot be EMU's however, as the new Champlain bridge going up cannot accommodate the weight of even EMU's, only light rail trains.

The REM should use Tram-Trains, that are compatible with mainline standards in the Mont Royal tunnel as well as being lightweight for the REM network.

Hey look! Alstom makes one

http://www.alstom.com/products-serv.../rail-systems/trains/products/citadis-dualis/

Won't happen. The REM has high platforms.

It will probably be a Metropolis variant, like those used in Barcelona

 

[robmausser]

Won't happen. The REM has high platforms.

It will probably be a Metropolis variant, like those used in Barcelona

Perhaps it could be a combination of the two technologies.

The high platform tram, with the tram-train capabilities of the Dualis.

Really all thats needed is the technology to operate with mainline PTC systems.

 

[nfitz]

You're wrong. Since the inception of the project, the REM trains were always planned to be up to 4 cars long (80m), just like in this rendition

Is that the ultimate length? That seems rather tiny, particularly for such narrow trains.

CDPQ Infra president Macky Tall said the renovated tunnel will be able to accommodate VIA’s heavy trains and the REM’s light-rail trains. However, the VIA trains will have to adapt technology now only used on light-rail trains so they can communicate with each other before switching tracks, to avoid collisions.

We'll see if Transport Canada makes it so simple. For either party!

 

[nephersir7]

Is that the ultimate length? That seems rather tiny, particularly for such narrow trains.

Narrow? They're 3m wide.

600 passegenrs * 90 sec headway = 24k pphpd. That's a fairly large max capacity.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Very interesting. You've made an excellent case that Caisse never should have made an issue of sharing Mount Royal Tunnel in the first place.

So why did they?

 

[nfitz]

Narrow? They're 3m wide.

Oh ... what vehicle is this then? Someone posted the picture of the Citadis Dualis, which is only 2.4 to 2.65 metres wide.

Still, if they are on these type of tracks, why isn't the width equal or greater (given the ability to bend around corners) the average subway car width of about 3.15 m?

Perhaps (other) people can avoid posting non-information in the discussion? There's no need to start posting what equipment you would use - let alone the rail porn. You are not building this.

600 passegenrs * 90 sec headway = 24k pphpd. That's a fairly large max capacity.

Ninety second headway is hard to do. Particularly for a network like this, where there's going to be a huge number of people exiting at Central station.

The frequency is only as good as the time it takes to traverse the busiest station. Unless they are willing to build extra tracks at certain stations.

But if they do, 24,000 is good. But I'm surprised they wouldn't go for a more normal platform length - if only for protecting for future redundancy.

 

[steveintoronto]

You're wrong. Since the inception of the project, the REM trains were always planned to be up to 4 cars long (80m), just like in this rendition

This is just four cars? Fitz' musing on the width is justified.

Réseau express métropolitain - REM
Published on Feb 8, 2018

42 secs from beginning

This vid was released also to CBC for their article:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...o-be-built-by-snc-lavalin-pomerleau-1.4526038

The REM will definitely have its own dedicated pair of tracks on this viaduct. It's wide enough for 4 tracks. The only track sharing would be in the tunnel, north of Central Station.

Very interesting in itself, as I read it, CN still owns the track, Central Station and the Tunnel. REM wants to purchase all three. So is CN amenable to this even if they don't sell, or is it contingent on a sale? 407 By-Pass junkies will be watching this closely. How's "extortion" expressed in French?

We'll see if Transport Canada makes it so simple. For either party!

Yeah, there's certainly going to have to be a 'new approach' taken by a number of parties who will then have to offer same to Toronto and other cases.

And it also sets precedents for how, for instance, UPX could be run by the same regulatory protocol as will have to happen for REM to use shared track. Lots of questions on this. I've got a number of sources I'm scouring through.

Ironically I'd posted descriptions of the Metropolis in the Relief Line string, lol...it wasn't very well received. Perhaps with Alstom expanding shop in Canada, and the advantage of the tech, more Torontonians will realize how this can be integrated with RER run-through.

The big bug-a-boo remains signalling and Transport Canada reticence.

http://www.alstom.com/products-services/product-catalogue/rail-systems/trains/products/metropolis/

 

[nephersir7]

as I read it, CN still owns the track, Central Station and the Tunnel. REM wants to purchase all three. So is CN amenable to this even if they don't sell, or is it contingent on a sale?

Track ownership never was an issue for CDPQ. CN is in the freight business and had no use for these passenger rail tracks and infrastructure.

In 2014, CN sold the Deux-Montagnes line to the AMT, including the Mt Royal tunnel.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/view/deux-montagnes-line-sold-to-amt.html

In 2016, CDPQi struck an agreement with CN to buy the track between Central Station and Bridge St.
https://www.cdpqinfra.com/en/content/cdpq-infra-and-cn-enter-agreement-decisive-step-réseau-électrique-métropolitain-rem-project

 

[steveintoronto]

Track ownership never was an issue for CDPQ. CN is in the freight business and had no use for these passenger rail tracks and infrastructure.

In 2014, CN sold the Deux-Montagnes line to the AMT, including the Mt Royal tunnel.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/view/deux-montagnes-line-sold-to-amt.html

In 2016, CDPQi struck an agreement with CN to buy the track between Central Station and Bridge St.
https://www.cdpqinfra.com/en/content/cdpq-infra-and-cn-enter-agreement-decisive-step-réseau-électrique-métropolitain-rem-project

And Metrolinx has an agreement with CN to gain a bypass (of some description, passage at least for electrified track) of the Bramalea to Georgetown sub. The announcement at the time was that the (gist) "Toronto to K/W line was sold by CN to Metrolinx". I'm skeptical until I see in print that CN has actually sold to CDPQ. I hope they have, because then it sets a positive precedent for believing same can happen in the GTA.

Under the agreement, CDPQ Infra will acquire the aerial structure leading to Central Station (Viaduc du Sud) from CN, allowing the REM to access the station directly. The agreement also allows the REM to use Central Station and run under CN’s tracks in the Pointe-Saint-Charles sector.

Ownership isn't complete.

As late as a few weeks back, this was the story:

[...]
JASON MAGDER, MONTREAL GAZETTE
More from Jason Magder, Montreal Gazette
Published on: January 25, 2018 | Last Updated: January 25, 2018 8:34 PM EST

Passengers travelling from Quebec City to Toronto may have to take three trains to get to the final destination according to VIA Rail’s current plan to build a dedicated rail in the Windsor corridor.

The proposed $4-billion project to have dedicated tracks along the Quebec-Windsor route would allow the crown corporation to boost the number of trips in the corridor. However, VIA’s heavy rail passenger trains will probably be incompatible with the planned transformation of the Mount Royal tunnel as part of the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec’s $6-billion Réseau électrique métropolitain.

Under that project, which has received funding from both the federal and provincial governments, the Caisse would take possession of the Mount Royal tunnel from the Réseau de transport métropolitain (RTM), which is now part of the Deux Montagnes train line. Under the terms of the deal, the pension fund is expected to be granted sole possession of the tunnel. The Caisse project calls for driverless electric trains running every six to 12 minutes on the line, 20 hours per day, and would require converting the track for light-rail trains, thus making it incompatible with the heavy rail cars VIA would use.

Jean-Vincent Lacroix, a spokesperson for the Caisse, confirmed to the Montreal Gazette the Caisse’s plans would preclude VIA Rail’s trains running on the track, at least in the near term. However, Lacroix said it is expected new technology will allow VIA to adapt its cars.

“But until the adoption of this technology, we have proposed a transitory solution,” Lacroix said. “The HFR (high-frequency rail project) can connect to the REM through a new intermodal station planned for the northeast of Montreal, near Highway 40.”

For VIA Rail passengers travelling from Quebec City to Toronto, that would mean taking three trains to get to their final destination: one from Quebec City to the north end of Montreal, transferring onto the REM to get to Central Station, and then getting on a different VIA Rail train at Central Station to get to Toronto. Currently, passengers taking that trip only have to transfer once at Central Station. [...]

http://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...quebec-to-windor-travel-would-involve-the-rem

Something isn't linear in the story that we're being presented with...or!...it is as being told, and Toronto can expect similar treatment from CN, and VIA *can* run through Mount Royal Tunnel.

Seems to me there's still a number of essential pieces missing, but if REM does utilize the Metropolis Metro vehicles, that's a victory of sorts right there. Vancouver has been the only other example metro vehicles being used. (TO's SRT was just an oddity, albeit a precursor)

I find it truly odd that only words have changed for VIA HFR through the tunnel. If it's suddenly possible now, and by your claim a metro type multiple vehicle train was always the proposal, then why was HFR compatibility denied as being possible before? I suspect the answer isn't technical as much as proprietary and political.

Btw: That "depiction" of dispute is being fed to many news outlets by CDPQ.

 

[SamStar]

I find it truly odd that only words have changed for VIA HFR through the tunnel. If it's suddenly possible now, and by your claim a metro type multiple vehicle train was always the proposal, then why was HFR compatibility denied as being possible before? I suspect the answer isn't technical as much as proprietary and political.

I am tempted to say that the federal funding had to do with this decision. This is purely speculative.
What is also interesting is that a specific entity/branch (a filiale, in French) named IntraMTL.co will be created and will own the Tunnel, the station and the rail viaduc from Gare Centrale to Bridge street.
A descriptive slide can be found there : https://mtlurb.com/index.php?/topic...-metropolitain/&do=findComment&comment=305761
(Thanks to Megafolie, the original poster)

It will be interesting to see if the future HFR will stop along the REM stops close to the tunnel. I could see a stop in Laval at De la Concorde, there is already a RTM station there connected to the Metro.
Then, maybe a stop at A40 for connections to the airport and possibly Edouard-Monpetit REM station before reaching Central Station. This would allow for multiple metro connections on the Orange, Blue and Green lines.

With the quite rapid frequency of the REM, I am not sure it will be possible unless they create a dedicated VIA platform in the tunnel station, which means $$$ and appears less likely than a run-through without any stop.

 

[nfitz]

This is just four cars? Fitz' musing on the width is justified.

To be fair, that looks like some kind of mutant 12-segment single-car Citadis 405 variant. I've put a blow-up below.

Or two 7-segment 405s, cutting off the cab ends on 2 cars and sticking them together. A 405 would be about 45 metres long. Looks like each cab is 10.8 metres long. So a single 68-metre long car.

Not longer than 80 metres ... I'd have thought you'd be looking at 14 segments or so if using Citadis. But that's a low-flow tram. Wouldn't you want high-floor for this?

Does Alstom even make high-floor trams any more? Is there any need for using trams, looking at the map, isn't everything on the island grade-separated?

Why not use a 4-car (20-metre long cars) driverless Alstom Metropolis subway train.

 

[nfitz]

What is also interesting is that a specific entity/branch (a filiale, in French) named IntraMTL.co will be created and will own the Tunnel, the station and the rail viaduc from Gare Centrale to Bridge street.

Bridge Street?

Rue Bridge in the Point?

 

[SamStar]

Bridge Street?

Rue Bridge in the Point?

My best approximation would be until the viaduc at the corner of Wellington and Bridge.