TTC: Waterfront Transit EA

[DSC]

... from the sounds of it they already have decided the best way to speed things up is to look at alternate options - like do nothing, monorail, busses and DRL...none of which will make any sense and take longer than building the already planned LRT, ...

I must admit I have not gone back to refresh my memory but at the many EA meetings on the QQE transit I clearly remember that the over-riding problem was that of getting people from 'the waterfront" to a subway. Buses were seen as impractical as Bay and Yonge are already blocked at rush-hours and there was no suitable terminus so the LRT was clearly the best choice because it would be underground and use the (not heavily used) existing Bay Street tunnel. As the Union streetcar loop was, even then, seen as being inadequate it is VERY unfortunate that "they" did not expand it when it was closed (for 2 years?) while QQW was being rebuilt.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the sounds of it, the whole thing has been scrapped, the money redeployed to a reserve fund because they think the economy is tanking and they won't hit their targets, and instead they will install some new planters and repave the road...

You're sure about that? The Liberals are pledging $20 billion for transit over the next 10 years. The NDP is pledging $1.3 billion annually for public transit. The Conservatives have no dollar amount yet, but pledge to continue current projects. Still have till October, so there could be better nubmers that the federal parties will present.

 

[drum118]

I must admit I have not gone back to refresh my memory but at the many EA meetings on the QQE transit I clearly remember that the over-riding problem was that of getting people from 'the waterfront" to a subway. Buses were seen as impractical as Bay and Yonge are already blocked at rush-hours and there was no suitable terminus so the LRT was clearly the best choice because it would be underground and use the (not heavily used) existing Bay Street tunnel. As the Union streetcar loop was, even then, seen as being inadequate it is VERY unfortunate that "they" did not expand it when it was closed (for 2 years?) while QQW was being rebuilt.

Needed about $350 million to rebuilt the loop and thats the problem, no money.

TTC plan for rebuilding the loop is outdated and out of this world.

 

[georgevicbell]

I'd heard rumours they were thinking of putting something in the basement of the new bus terminal...in theory that would require an updated plan...

 

[DSC]

I'd heard rumours they were thinking of putting something in the basement of the new bus terminal...in theory that would require an updated plan...

More than a rumour, look at that thread. At TEYCC today the City are to decide if they want to pay for a PLATFORM in that basement - it is right beside the existing Bay Street streetcar tunnel.

 

[Filip]

Speaking of waterfront transit (let's focus on where there are 30,000 residents and not vacant plots of land, if we may)... They need to post haste figure out how to link the waterfront streetcars to the Lake Shore streetcar before this gets out of hand.

It's funny watching the the crush load on existing transit and the traffic stretching from basically Palace Pier to Mimico proper. The city seems to have its head in the sand, but doesn't mind pilfering us in taxes and providing next to no service back.

 

[muller877]

Speaking of waterfront transit (let's focus on where there are 30,000 residents and not vacant plots of land, if we may)... They need to post haste figure out how to link the waterfront streetcars to the Lake Shore streetcar before this gets out of hand.

It's funny watching the the crush load on existing transit and the traffic stretching from basically Palace Pier to Mimico proper. The city seems to have its head in the sand, but doesn't mind pilfering us in taxes and providing next to no service back.

There is a fairly cost effective plan out there. At Dufferin head south. Extend the tracks across the Dufferin bridge and then head east until the Ex Loop. The streetcar would then head along Queens Quay. A fairly short and non-intrusive build and could be done fairly quickly (almost all through the CNE grounds). Less than 1 km of new track according to Google maps (say $10M).

This would also add redundancy to the streetcar network.

But quite a few people want the Cadillac version. A new streetcar along Fort York/Bremner including a new tunnel under the Skydome. Or at Roncey a new bridge over the tracks/Gardiner and along Lakeshore (where no one lives or works!)

If we just went with the cost effective we could show a noticeable increase in the transit use in South Etobicoke and then ask for further incremental improvements (e.g. a solutions to speed up the Jamison/King, Roncey/King/Queen/Queensway and Bathust/Lakeshore intersections)

 

[44 North]

Needed about $350 million to rebuilt the loop and thats the problem, no money.

TTC plan for rebuilding the loop is outdated and out of this world.

Is it true that the loop will be shut down for ~2yrs during the rebuild? Because I think that's just as much of a deal-breaker as the high cost of the project. QQW just reopened, after a costly and lengthy closure. So how the hell can it be justified closing it down again? QQW has become a tourist mecca, with throngs of families and visitors wanting to spend money. I don't think the loss of the streetcar and a direct Union connection will go over well. And will buses be tearing down the ROW during this closure?

As for the high capital cost...I'm bias in that I think the investment is worth it, but I doubt most at City Hall would think along those lines. Half a $Billion, on top of the massive investment Union is already seeing, and a potential multi-billion dollar DRL...that's a lot of money. I think there's gotta be a another way of bringing railed transit to the East Bayfront (and beyond) without having to rebuild the loop. Although most would prefer trains rolling slowly down the street, I believe the City would be wise to leave the door open for other solutions (particularly if an Olympics bid may be part of our future).

And lastly, I think with QQW's reopening there's some evidence that a streetcar solution won't be all it's cracked up to be. I'm a big supporter of street rail, but for a high-density downtown with small blocks and numerous traffic lights we may be outgrowing their merits. Slower speeds than promised, more stops than promised, less reliability than promised, less capacity than promised...these are probably some of the reasons why certain east waterfront developers wanted something a step above streetcars for the East Bayfront, LDL, and Port Lands.

 

[nfitz]

Is it true that the loop will be shut down for ~2yrs during the rebuild? Because I think that's just as much of a deal-breaker as the high cost of the project. QQW just reopened, after a costly and lengthy closure. So how the hell can it be justified closing it down again?

You could stage it. Build the new Queens Quay East track, and the new exit out of the Bay tunnel onto Queens Quay East, which should be possible with only some minimal closures near the end remove the one wall and then later to connect the track. Then run the streetcar service down Queens Quay East to a loop for the 2-year construction.

Alternatively, find a way to construct much of then new platforms without shutting down the current service, so that the closure is shorter. Of course this will cost more money.

 

[44 North]

That seems wise. But during construction, Union-bound riders using the 509 and 510 will then have to get off at the nearest stop to Union (near Simcoe). This would leave something like a 750m walk to the subway. I'm not averse to this as a possible temporary solution, but I think that kind of distance may cause it to be ruled out. As well, the only loop on QQE that I'm aware of will be at Parliament, which I guess is fine. And it'd be interesting to create a new cross-waterfront streetcar route (albeit a temporary one), with the 509/510 going all the way to Parliament. But again, with Union being over 0.5km from stops on QQ east or west, this may be seen as a less favourable option.

If service disruption at Union can be avoided, I think it'd be worthwhile. But no doubt cost will be an issue. As it stands, cost is already the greatest issue - so any which way I look at things, the QQE plan has problems. My stance is that factoring in these hidden/newfound costs to the original project cost, perhaps we could use the same amount for a different solution (one that was originally ruled out, or a new plan altogether). And hopefully a plan than won't involve future riders/tourists being corralled like cattle and having to wait in long queues at Union just to access the waterfront.

 

[W. K. Lis]

They could construct behind the current concrete walls. When they need to take down the separating walls, then they can close it for time they need to do so. When they built the North York Centre Station, they kept the existing tunnel in service until they needed the wall taken down.

 

[drum118]

The Loop can be built in phases, but it still require to be shut down it for at least 6 months. You build the east first and then the west or you can do the west now with the building of the new Bay concourse at a faster rate and cheaper cost.

You have to rebuilt the north loop and that can be done when you rebuilt the portal so it is a T connection to service both lines as well building the east tunnel. Don't forget the portal has to be rebuilt so cars can go east as well bypass the loop.

The land being given to this tunnel/loop by Metrolinx is for the east platforms has been part of the loop expansion from day one over 2 decades ago. Unless Metrolinx kicking in money for this platform, still has to be pay by someone with the cost going up overtime.

 

[ehlow]

How bad is the problem of trains stopping in the tunnel right before the loop?

I usually only ride off-peak and I find it often stops for a few minutes in the tunnel before going into the loop (at both Union and Spadina). Is it even worse at rush hour?

 

[Kitsune]

.. its a side effect of the new streetcars at Union. Only one can fit at a time - so anything behind it gets stuck waiting.

 

[Edward Skira]

Anybody have a graphic of what would ideally be built here to serve both east and west QQ? I'm having a hard time grasping what you folks are talking about.