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TTC: Waterfront Transit EA

TheTigerMaster said:
Waterfront LRT has always been a no brainier for me. The thing is stupid cheap. Just build it.
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What cost estimate are you using to arrive at "stupid cheap" (serious question). Are you including vehicles or just the track, new tunnel, Parliament Loop, the connection to the Cherry line and the expansion of Union Loop?
 
dowlingm said:
What cost estimate are you using to arrive at "stupid cheap" (serious question). Are you including vehicles or just the track, new tunnel, Parliament Loop, the connection to the Cherry line and the expansion of Union Loop?
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A very good question (or series of questions) and "Waterfront LRT" means different things to different people. My own priorities (obviously including vehicles) would be:

1. QQE line from Bay to Parliament (including a tunnel to connect to Bay tunnel and a loop at Parliament.)
2. Then the link through the rail berm to Cherry and
3. Then a link or extension (how I do not know) at the west end of the 'downtown waterfront" from Exhibition to Ontario Place.

The original plans for the Waterfront West LRT were to extend a line from Exhibition loop to Queen/Queensway area (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfront_West_LRT ) and there is also a plan to build an LRT along Bremner Blvd from Union to Exhibition/Fort York. THIS section of a waterfront LRT is far less well thought out and clearly needs more study and discussion.
 
DSC said:
A very good question (or series of questions) and "Waterfront LRT" means different things to different people. My own priorities (obviously including vehicles) would be:

1. QQE line from Bay to Parliament (including a tunnel to connect to Bay tunnel and a loop at Parliament.)
2. Then the link through the rail berm to Cherry and
3. Then a link or extension (how I do not know) at the west end of the 'downtown waterfront" from Exhibition to Ontario Place.

The original plans for the Waterfront West LRT were to extend a line from Exhibition loop to Queen/Queensway area (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfront_West_LRT ) and there is also a plan to build an LRT along Bremner Blvd from Union to Exhibition/Fort York. THIS section of a waterfront LRT is far less well thought out and clearly needs more study and discussion.
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I'd generally agree with that. In terms of phasing, I'd like to see this:

1) Completion of the Queen's Quay West LRT from Union to Exhibition (opening very soon if memory serves me correctly, so that can be dropped off the to-do list shortly).

2) Queen's Quay East LRT from Union to Cherry, with a wye at Cherry to split the line with 1 branch going up Cherry into the West Donlands and another going down Cherry into the Portlands. The Cherry north section already exists, and the Portlands section can be pushed back until development there really begins.

3) Extension of the Queen's Quay West LRT from Exhibition to Humber Loop (really only the gap between Exhibition and Queen & Roncesvalles).

4) LRT-ification of the Lake Shore West section of the 501 from Humber Loop to Long Branch, included dedicated ROW and actual in-median platforms.

5) LRT along Bremner from just east of the Ex to Union, including the tunnel into Union. This would allow an increase in capacity for the west waterfront, and allow the current QQW tracks to be used exclusively by the Spadina LRT instead of both Spadina and QQW.

6) Waterfront East LRT extension into the Portlands once development there starts ramping up.
 
gweed123 said:
I'd generally agree with that. In terms of phasing, I'd like to see this:

1) Completion of the Queen's Quay West LRT from Union to Exhibition (opening very soon if memory serves me correctly, so that can be dropped off the to-do list shortly).

2) Queen's Quay East LRT from Union to Cherry, with a wye at Cherry to split the line with 1 branch going up Cherry into the West Donlands and another going down Cherry into the Portlands. The Cherry north section already exists, and the Portlands section can be pushed back until development there really begins.

3) Extension of the Queen's Quay West LRT from Exhibition to Humber Loop (really only the gap between Exhibition and Queen & Roncesvalles).

4) LRT-ification of the Lake Shore West section of the 501 from Humber Loop to Long Branch, included dedicated ROW and actual in-median platforms.

5) LRT along Bremner from just east of the Ex to Union, including the tunnel into Union. This would allow an increase in capacity for the west waterfront, and allow the current QQW tracks to be used exclusively by the Spadina LRT instead of both Spadina and QQW.

6) Waterfront East LRT extension into the Portlands once development there starts ramping up.
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Nov will see the QQ W line drop off the short list.

There are a number of issues stopping this at this time as well lack of funding.

1. Until there is a real plan in place as well what to do with the Gardiner as well the land between Cherry St and Parliament, the QQ E line can only goes as far as Parliament St.

2. What to do with the Cherry St Underpass that has being rebuilt some what at a cost of $50 million or so to rebuild it for the Cherry St extension, extending the line south of the current location is still far down the road.

3. Until the New Cherry St is built including the new bridge, can't connect QQ east LRT line to it as well item 1. It will be in the 2020's before the New Cherry St get built

4. Until there is a rethinking how to take the current Fleet ROW west to Humber Loop/River, it will be about 2030/40 before it happens. I still say take the line along the north side of the Lake Shore for the CNE ground and then west on the Lake Shore bypass the Humber Loop all together and will require a new bridge over the Humber. The current approved EA calls for the LRT line to be on the Lake Shore, West of the CNE, but connecting to the Queensway before Humber.

5. Don't support the Bremner line as it will do nothing for the system, but most of all create a nightmare operation in the Bay tunnel where it connects to. Even City Place don't see the need for this line. TTC is looking at running a Bathurst line on this line to Union that will put more pressure on the already under capacity plan extension.

6. At the current rate, the rest of the Portland LRT system will not be built until 2040/50.
 
drum118 said:
Even City Place don't see the need for this line.
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According to who?

I speak for the Residents' Association, which is in support of the the line, as well as the developer, the local MPP, MP, and many of the council candidates for Ward 20. Residents want this line and have been putting pressure on the city and upper levels of government to make it happen.
 
I'm confused as to what a Waterfront LRT would actually be. Would it be LRT trains replacing the QQ streetcar on an extended track along QQ? Or an LRT line along the rail corridor? Or is it literally just an extension of the QQ streetcar line?
 
JMSRead said:
I'm confused as to what a Waterfront LRT would actually be. Would it be LRT trains replacing the QQ streetcar on an extended track along QQ? Or an LRT line along the rail corridor? Or is it literally just an extension of the QQ streetcar line?
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This was the route recommended from the EA:

Study undertaken for the Bremner-Fort York environmental assessment has identified the following alignment to be feasible and operationally superior (see Exhibit 2):
• terminal operation in an expanded Union Station LRT/streetcar loop, which has already undergone preliminary engineering and design
• south through the existing Bay Street tunnel
• west via a new tunnel to be built under the Air Canada Centre Galleria, under the southeast corner of the office building under construction at 25 York Street (at Bremner Boulevard) and under a short section of Bremner Boulevard. This tunnel has been previously protected during the design and construction of these buildings
• right-of-way would emerge to grade via a portal on Bremner Boulevard near Simcoe Street
• between Simcoe Street and Bathurst Street, the dedicated streetcar right-of-way would be in the centre of Bremner Boulevard and Fort York Boulevard. During the construction of Fort York Boulevard, between Spadina Avenue and Bathurst Street, a centre median was included for the specific purpose of accommodating a light rail right-of-way and passenger platforms
• the reconstruction of the Bathurst Street bridge over the railway tracks, expected to begin later in 2008, has been designed to allow for light rail/streetcar movements across Bathurst Street, and between Bathurst Street and Fort York Boulevard

Between Bathurst Street and Exhibition Place, two alignments options are still under consideration:
• In Option A, shown in Exhibit 3, the dedicated right-of-way would continue west in the centre of Fort York Boulevard from Bathurst Street and connect to the existing LRT/streetcar right-of-way on Fleet Street, where the alignment would proceed west along the existing Fleet Street right-of-way to Exhibition Place and the onward
connections with the Waterfront West light rail line. This “centre of Fleet Street and Fort York Boulevard” alignment is illustrated in the Central Waterfront Secondary Plan.
• In Option B, shown in Exhibit 4, the dedicated right-of-way would continue west in the centre of Fort York Boulevard, and then shift north to an alignment under the Gardiner Expressway where Fort York Boulevard crosses under the expressway. In this “under the Gardiner” alignment, the right-of-way would then continue west under the Gardiner Expressway and make use of an abandoned railway cut and underpass at Strachan Avenue to connect to Exhibition Place and the Waterfront West light rail line. Exhibit 5 is a photograph showing the area proposed for this alignment under the Gardiner Expressway, looking west towards the Strachan Avenue bridge, and Exhibit 6 is a rendering illustrating a potential light rail right-of-way and passenger stop at Strachan Avenue.

There are some pretty maps and renderings of what the line could look like here:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/pg/bgrd/backgroundfile-14828.pdf
 
Tuscani01 said:
According to who?

I speak for the Residents' Association, which is in support of the the line, as well as the developer, the local MPP, MP, and many of the council candidates for Ward 20. Residents want this line and have been putting pressure on the city and upper levels of government to make it happen.
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Long before you moved into the area with the developer.

The developer saw no need for a transit line as they saw most people walking to the downtown area and had access to 3 TTC lines on bad weather day.

The only transit line that should be there as an east-west is Front Street, since there used to be one before the subway.

There should be more service on Spadina, but the bean counters have rule that out. Even 509 should have better service.

Since the Fort York section has been removed by FORT YORK, there is no way getting an east-west line other from Bathurst St only.

The developers were force to put in that road as is by the city, since they only wanted a 2 lane road in the first place.

Part of TTC wanted this line, since it was another way getting riders to use the Bathurst line as well trying to justify the Waterfront extension.

Talk to Steve Munro about this line and he even has shot this line down since he knows of a better route.
 
I live in Cityplace and certainly if the resident's association supports the "Bremner line", then I can say it doesn't speak for me.

The 510, 511, 509 and 504 lines are all very short walks away. Granted, before the Ponte de Luz bridge and the intersection at Fort York and Bathurst, it was more difficult to reach the 511 and 504, but now they are 5-10 minutes away.

We are more than well served by transit.

The ultimate east-ward destination of the Bremner line (Union) is a 10-15 minute walk away, or 5-10 minutes when the 509/510 QQ section reopens.

Westward, wherever the future Waterfront West LRT is aligned (presumably along Lakeshore or via a reconstruction of the Fleet ROW) will also be easily walkable from Cityplace.

Tell me again, what purpose would the Bremner line fulfill that I haven't described already?

If it was up to me, I'd extend vehicle lanes for Fort York Blvd into the space originally reserved for this streetcar line instead.
 
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As I noted a while ago; the need for and route of the QQ EAST LRT is well thought out, has general agreement and has been costed out. The same cannot be said for the Waterfront West LRT where there are disagreements about the route(s) and even the need. The QQ East LRT should be built ASAP so that it is there when people start moving into the new developments being sold east of Jarvis. "Transit First" and all that!
 
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